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Georges Laraque is heading home

 
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Marty

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Since: Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 519



(Msg. 16) Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Georges Laraque is heading home [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>sports>hockey>nhl>mtl-canadiens (more info?)

Chuck <barberphoto411 DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in
news:32656e7e-e519-4d82-b2d4-a8af05ac3b96@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:


> It is too early to waste a roster spot on a pressbox commando. They
> have some depth with young defencemen. Give someone a chance to win
> the position during training camp. Rookie against rookie as Obryne and
> whoever fight it out for the 6th and 7th defence spots. Once a clear
> winner is found demote the loser for some playing time. Worry about
> carrying a 7th Dandy type vet later in the season, around the trade
> deadline. Never saw the sense in relying on a player who would be
> sitting in the pressbox for most of the last quarter of thew season vs
> a game ready callup from Hamilton.
>
> If Montreal does eventually sign Sundin, hopefully Dandy is the
> compensation.
>

You need to carry a 7th d-man. You need him to provide a little push, and
you need to have him on hand in case someone gets injured in a game, and
the team plays again soon, like the next night. You don't want to have to
be calling guys up and sending them halfway across the country, especially
if the injury is iffy (i.e. day-to-day), and you're not sure if you need
him or not. You want a spare at every position. That's why, if we can't get
rid of him, Dandy is a good spare, because he can double as our 2nd spare
forward and our spare d-man if they ever wanted to go with a 22 man roster
instead of 23. That would make his salary seem a little less overblown for
a spare part.

None of this is to say I wouldn't try and move him, but if I couldn't
without it costing us in some way, I'd be OK with them using him as a swing
man.

Marty

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Chuck

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Since: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 174



(Msg. 17) Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:08 am
Post subject: Re: Georges Laraque is heading home [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Jul 4, 8:29 pm, Marty <martytest2... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> Chuck <barberphoto... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote innews:32656e7e-e519-4d82-b2d4-a8af05ac3b96@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
> > It is too early to waste a roster spot on a pressbox commando. They
> > have some depth with young defencemen. Give someone a chance to win
> > the position during training camp. Rookie against rookie as Obryne and
> > whoever fight it out for the 6th and 7th defence spots. Once a clear
> > winner is found demote the loser for some playing time. Worry about
> > carrying a 7th Dandy type vet later in the season, around the trade
> > deadline. Never saw the sense in relying on a player who would be
> > sitting in the pressbox for most of the last quarter of thew season vs
> > a game ready callup from Hamilton.
>
> > If Montreal does eventually sign Sundin, hopefully Dandy is the
> > compensation.
>
> You need to carry a 7th d-man. You need him to provide a little push, and
> you need to have him on hand in case someone gets injured in a game, and
> the team plays again soon, like the next night. You don't want to have to
> be calling guys up and sending them halfway across the country, especially
> if the injury is iffy (i.e. day-to-day), and you're not sure if you need
> him or not. You want a spare at every position. That's why, if we can't get
> rid of him, Dandy is a good spare, because he can double as our 2nd spare
> forward and our spare d-man if they ever wanted to go with a 22 man roster
> instead of 23. That would make his salary seem a little less overblown for
> a spare part.
>
> None of this is to say I wouldn't try and move him, but if I couldn't
> without it costing us in some way, I'd be OK with them using him as a swing
> man.
>
> Marty

Not saying the team should not carry a 7th defenceman. Just think they
should carry a younger player who has the potential to step up and win
a long term regular position, something Dandy cannot do. As a spare
forward he is not that versatile to step into the lineup and help a
line remain productive. Gainey has done a great job of getting the
talent flowing up the development system. With the bidding wars, which
will take place every July 1st, it will be more important then ever to
know what young talent can step into the lineup to replace a lost UFA.
Knowing that players are ready can help decide where to invest cap
space. If Komisarek could not be signed, knowing that a player in the
system can replace him frees up money which could be used to sign a
forward instead. It reduces the need to invest in "filler" type
players.

Invest the early part of the season to give young players a chance to
win a position. If they really need a veteran 7th defenceman, pick one
up later in the season. Early season presence of Dandy as a 7th
defenceman will not make the difference between making and missing the
play-offs since he is not goning to be able to replace a top 4
defenceman, if the need occurs.

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Chuck

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Since: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 174



(Msg. 18) Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:29 am
Post subject: Re: Georges Laraque is heading home [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Jul 5, 2:11 pm, Marty <martytest2... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> Chuck <barberphoto... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote innews:a650c0d0-03df-421a-b581-5d7f98706eca@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Invest the early part of the season to give young players a chance to
> > win a position. If they really need a veteran 7th defenceman, pick one
> > up later in the season. Early season presence of Dandy as a 7th
> > defenceman will not make the difference between making and missing the
> > play-offs since he is not goning to be able to replace a top 4
> > defenceman, if the need occurs.
>
> Teams miss and/or make the p;ay-offs by 1-2 points. So even 1-2 good or bad
> plays in an 82 game schedule by the 12th forward or 6th d-man can make a
> difference.

I just cannot see Dandy ever popping up and doing what Umberger did
last season. Yes, fringe players can be important, and can make a
difference. I would just like to see even players such as Dandaneault
be at risk of losing their positions to someone who is more likely to
come through with a Umberger type surprise. I am not arguing against
the merit of carrying spare defencemen or forwards, I think Montreal
could have upgraded on players such as Dandy, if they had bought him
out.
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Marty

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Since: Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 519



(Msg. 19) Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Georges Laraque is heading home [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Chuck <barberphoto411 DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in
news:a650c0d0-03df-421a-b581-5d7f98706eca@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:


> Invest the early part of the season to give young players a chance to
> win a position. If they really need a veteran 7th defenceman, pick one
> up later in the season. Early season presence of Dandy as a 7th
> defenceman will not make the difference between making and missing the
> play-offs since he is not goning to be able to replace a top 4
> defenceman, if the need occurs.
>

Teams miss and/or make the p;ay-offs by 1-2 points. So even 1-2 good or bad
plays in an 82 game schedule by the 12th forward or 6th d-man can make a
difference.
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Chuck

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Since: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 174



(Msg. 20) Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Georges Laraque is heading home [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jul 5, 8:38 pm, Marty <martytest2... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

> Dandy's contract is a minor mistake. However, I'm a little puzzled why he
> didn't qualify as a d-man at all last season. I didn't think he was that
> terrible as a d-man. So I think he's OK as a spare back there, as well as
> at forward.

If Montreal is ever going to reduce their shots on goal against totals
they need players who can pass the puck, on defence as well as
forward. Dandeneault is more a dumper then a passer. As a forward
return passes to linemates are rare. Other then a couple of 2 goal
games what makes him a good spare forward? Look at his career stats as
Montreal increased his playing time as a forward, his assist totals
dropped.

If it is just a case of carrying one non waiveable veteran in the
pressbox, at this point it might aswell be Dandeneault, at least he
tends to stay healthy. The same cannot be said about Begin. If they
need to clear some roster space becuse of training camp surprises, I
think it will be Begin who would get moved. The other player at risk
is Lapierre, he needs to come into camp ready to play the pest role to
the max, he cannot afford to have a bad camp.
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Marty

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Since: Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 519



(Msg. 21) Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Georges Laraque is heading home [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Chuck <barberphoto411 RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in
news:bf3980f8-dfb8-4b12-bedc-b714cd8e2357@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

> On Jul 5, 2:11 pm, Marty <martytest2... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Chuck <barberphoto... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote
>> innews:a650c0d0-03df-421a-b581-5d7
> f98706eca RemoveThis @d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > Invest the early part of the season to give young players a chance
>> > to win a position. If they really need a veteran 7th defenceman,
>> > pick one up later in the season. Early season presence of Dandy as
>> > a 7th defenceman will not make the difference between making and
>> > missing the play-offs since he is not goning to be able to replace
>> > a top 4 defenceman, if the need occurs.
>>
>> Teams miss and/or make the p;ay-offs by 1-2 points. So even 1-2 good
>> or b
> ad
>> plays in an 82 game schedule by the 12th forward or 6th d-man can
>> make a difference.
>
> I just cannot see Dandy ever popping up and doing what Umberger did
> last season. Yes, fringe players can be important, and can make a
> difference. I would just like to see even players such as Dandaneault
> be at risk of losing their positions to someone who is more likely to
> come through with a Umberger type surprise. I am not arguing against
> the merit of carrying spare defencemen or forwards, I think Montreal
> could have upgraded on players such as Dandy, if they had bought him
> out.
>

Dandy's contract is a minor mistake. However, I'm a little puzzled why he
didn't qualify as a d-man at all last season. I didn't think he was that
terrible as a d-man. So I think he's OK as a spare back there, as well as
at forward.

As for our d-man prospects, I think most are generally felt to be a year
away. At the least, they are still in the raw stages and need playing
time. Sitting in the Montreal pressbox won't help. Not if they are almost
certain to be sitting most games. So you carry someone like Dandy as a
7th. If a moderate-to-major injury happens, you call up another guy who's
been playing a lot in the minors. Then those two can split the time
filling in for the injured d-man. If the prospect was doing well, say a
Velentenko, maybe he fills in for the majority, and Dandy still sits. The
point is, Dandy is the reserve in all instances, able to step in
immediately at forward or defence, and if a prospect is ready to pass
him, hell, we let him pass him, but if not, Dandy does the job with
reasonable efficiency for a spare, and with versitality that most spares
don't have.

It is nice to be mostly debating the role of our 14th forward or 7th d-
man. I understand Gainey's doing his best to get Sundin, and he was
correct to sit out the rest of the UFA craziness, save for Hossa, but
that was Hossa's decision to give Detroit such a steal of a contract. So
mostly, the right deals are being made. He's gone with youth to a great
deal, so if Gainey isn't buying out Dandy to make room for a prospect on
defence, then I assume he feels he thinks they likely aren't quite ready.
I trust he's got a good feel for that. Heck, if anything, Gainey might
err on the side of throwing prospects into major roles too early, not too
late. Overall though, i like the way things are being handled on that
front.

Marty
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Marty

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Since: Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 519



(Msg. 22) Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Georges Laraque is heading home [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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j.bauch.DeleteThis@comcast.net wrote in
news:02b225af-ed8d-429f-94b3-ce10e2d92323@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

> But I think this is all moot, because I think Dandenault's a modestly
> useful guy to have around, and I doubt Gainey's in any hurry to get
> rid of him. Sure, he's a little overpriced, but just a little.

I agree with every word you said.

Marty
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j.bauch

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Since: Jun 09, 2006
Posts: 119



(Msg. 23) Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Georges Laraque is heading home [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jul 5, 7:11 pm, Chuck <barberphoto....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Option A;  Keep Dandenault.  Have his services for this year, however
> > little you might thinks they're worth, using cap space the Habs can
> > afford in 2008-09, but none in 2009-10.
>
> They had until the end of June to buy him out. It is too late now.

I know (there is a later window based on arbitration awards, but I
have no idea if the Habs will end up being eligible to use it anyway).

I was just explaining why I think they made the decision they did.

Jim
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Chuck

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Since: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 174



(Msg. 24) Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Georges Laraque is heading home [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jul 6, 12:36 am, j.ba... RemoveThis @comcast.net wrote:
> On Jul 5, 7:11 pm, Chuck <barberphoto... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Option A;  Keep Dandenault.  Have his services for this year, however
> > > little you might thinks they're worth, using cap space the Habs can
> > > afford in 2008-09, but none in 2009-10.
>
> > They had until the end of June to buy him out. It is too late now.
>
> I know (there is a later window based on arbitration awards, but I
> have no idea if the Habs will end up being eligible to use it anyway).
>
> I was just explaining why I think they made the decision they did.
>
> Jim

My only concern about keeping Dandenault would be if they signed
additional veterans (such as Breezy) and a third veteran gets pushed
off the starting lineup by a rookie with a good training camp, leaves
three veterans in the pressbox meaning unless a waiveable player gets
punted down to Hamilton, they could only call someone up if injuries
occur. The other choice is to waive a veteran, something Montreal
(early season) has not done in a long time.
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Chuck

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Since: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 174



(Msg. 25) Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Georges Laraque is heading home [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jul 6, 12:36 am, j.ba....RemoveThis@comcast.net wrote:
> On Jul 5, 7:11 pm, Chuck <barberphoto....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Option A;  Keep Dandenault.  Have his services for this year, however
> > > little you might thinks they're worth, using cap space the Habs can
> > > afford in 2008-09, but none in 2009-10.
>
> > They had until the end of June to buy him out. It is too late now.
>
> I know (there is a later window based on arbitration awards, but I
> have no idea if the Habs will end up being eligible to use it anyway).
>

They could if he was a RFA, at the end of his contract and they didn`t
like the award. Which just leaves the RFA a UFA. No Cap issues. I
think they are limited to 2 walk aways a year.
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j.bauch

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Since: Jun 09, 2006
Posts: 119



(Msg. 26) Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Georges Laraque is heading home [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jul 5, 10:38 pm, Chuck <barberphoto....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 6, 12:36 am, j.ba....TakeThisOut@comcast.net wrote:
>
> > On Jul 5, 7:11 pm, Chuck <barberphoto....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Option A;  Keep Dandenault.  Have his services for this year, however
> > > > little you might thinks they're worth, using cap space the Habs can
> > > > afford in 2008-09, but none in 2009-10.
>
> > > They had until the end of June to buy him out. It is too late now.
>
> > I know (there is a later window based on arbitration awards, but I
> > have no idea if the Habs will end up being eligible to use it anyway).
>
> They could if he was a RFA, at the end of his contract and they didn`t
> like the award. Which just leaves the RFA a UFA. No Cap issues. I
> think they are limited to 2 walk aways a year.

No, you're talking about walkaway rights under Section 12.10 of the
CBA, which is something different. I was referring to a second "buy-
out window" that allows a team, under certain circumstances, to make
additional buy-outs within a 48-hour period beginning 3 days after the
last arbitration award or settlement. The buy-out has nothing to do
with the player who received the arbitration award; the idea is that
if an arb award for player X puts a team over the cap, they can buy
out players Y and Z if they want to get back under (although it's not
limited to that case; any team that has more than one arbitration case
can use it). It's CBA Section 11.18 and paragraph 13(c)(ii) of the
player contract.

Jim
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