Sigh...

"Marc-NS" wrote in message

On Dec 16, 9:50 pm, "GS" wrote:
> Mackenzie just mentioned AGAIN, that trader Cliff had deals in place and
> approved by both teams for:
>
> Kaberle for Carter + 1st Round Pick
>
> Sundin for Grabovski, Higgins + 1st Round Pick
>
> I know they signed those NTC contracts in good faith, and I know they are
> within their rights, but damn if that doesn't hurt knowing what could have
> been...

Oh yes...but remember that great commited captain we had didn't want
to be a rental player and join a team midway through the season....oh
wait a minute............


=============================

Imagine they deal those two, grab all those assets, finish lower in the
standings due to their two best players being dealt.

They draft Schenn (without the need to trade up in draft), they still have
two other first rounders to either deal or use as a package to move up, plus
they keep their other picks used to trade up for Schenn, plus they have
Higgins, plus they have Carter... I think I just had a stroke.
 >> Stay informed about: Sigh... 

On Dec 16, 8:50 pm, "GS" wrote:
> Mackenzie just mentioned AGAIN, that trader Cliff had deals in place and
> approved by both teams for:
>
> Kaberle for Carter + 1st Round Pick
>
> Sundin for Grabovski, Higgins + 1st Round Pick
>
> I know they signed those NTC contracts in good faith,

Which 'they'. The Org didn't sign them in good faith. The Org broke
faith with their signature, and carried on a public mob and browbeat
campaign to try and justify their hypocritical agenda when the world
didn't unfold they way they hoped. Flinch threw a public temper
tantrum over the Kubina fall-through; McCabe's position was
misrepresented; and the other two were tied to the streetcar rails.

> ... and I know they are within their rights,

Disagree again. Your post leans on them being creeps for not getting
with the exit program.

> but damn if that doesn't hurt knowing what could have been...

That's probably exactly what McKenzie wants you to feel. Notice how
the media skips over similar nyets like Blake, and Redden. McKenzie
was high on his horse predicting the Frozen would thaw and pack up -
he's never been held accountable for his part in this, has he?
 >> Stay informed about: Sigh... 

"owl" wrote in message

On Dec 16, 8:50 pm, "GS" wrote:
> Mackenzie just mentioned AGAIN, that trader Cliff had deals in place and
> approved by both teams for:
>
> Kaberle for Carter + 1st Round Pick
>
> Sundin for Grabovski, Higgins + 1st Round Pick
>
> I know they signed those NTC contracts in good faith,

Which 'they'. The Org didn't sign them in good faith. The Org broke
faith with their signature, and carried on a public mob and browbeat
campaign to try and justify their hypocritical agenda when the world
didn't unfold they way they hoped. Flinch threw a public temper
tantrum over the Kubina fall-through; McCabe's position was
misrepresented; and the other two were tied to the streetcar rails.

===============
They being the players. The players signed them with the nod that yes
indeed they would ultimately have a say in any trades, etc. The org reacted
poorly, although if Kubina did indeed agree to waive then changed his mind,
I can't blame Fletch for being a bit pissy with him.

> ... and I know they are within their rights,

Disagree again. Your post leans on them being creeps for not getting
with the exit program.

===============
I never called them creeps, 'they' (read, the players) certainly were within
their rights to say 'no mas' to any moves, which they did. Sure, I wish
they'd have left, I said the same thing last year, but my personal feelings
on the matter certainly does nothing to void a legal and valid part of a
players contract.

> but damn if that doesn't hurt knowing what could have been...

That's probably exactly what McKenzie wants you to feel. Notice how
the media skips over similar nyets like Blake, and Redden. McKenzie
was high on his horse predicting the Frozen would thaw and pack up -
he's never been held accountable for his part in this, has he?

===============
Given the fact that many of the 'no-movers' knew they'd be shown the door
one way or another, I think more than a few we're surprised that nobody
cracked under the pressure. Not sure about the comment on Mackenzie... he
was simply stating a fact in terms of what had been agreed to.
 >> Stay informed about: Sigh... 

if he goes to the rangers, I will be cheering ABNYR.....hey worked for NFLD
Williams.....LOL


"Marc-NS" wrote in message

On Dec 16, 9:50 pm, "GS" wrote:
> Mackenzie just mentioned AGAIN, that trader Cliff had deals in place and
> approved by both teams for:
>
> Kaberle for Carter + 1st Round Pick
>
> Sundin for Grabovski, Higgins + 1st Round Pick
>
> I know they signed those NTC contracts in good faith, and I know they are
> within their rights, but damn if that doesn't hurt knowing what could have
> been...

Oh yes...but remember that great commited captain we had didn't want
to be a rental player and join a team midway through the season....oh
wait a minute............
 >> Stay informed about: Sigh... 

On Dec 16, 10:29 pm, "GS" wrote:
> "owl" wrote in message
>
>
> On Dec 16, 8:50 pm, "GS" wrote:
>
> > Mackenzie just mentioned AGAIN, that trader Cliff had deals in place and
> > approved by both teams for:
>
> > Kaberle for Carter + 1st Round Pick
>
> > Sundin for Grabovski, Higgins + 1st Round Pick
>
> > I know they signed those NTC contracts in good faith,
>
> Which 'they'.  The Org didn't sign them in good faith.  The Org broke
> faith with their signature, and carried on a public mob and browbeat
> campaign to try and justify their hypocritical agenda when the world
> didn't unfold they way they hoped.  Flinch threw a public temper
> tantrum over the Kubina fall-through; McCabe's position was
> misrepresented; and the other two were tied to the streetcar rails.
>
> ===============
> They being the players.  The players signed them with the nod that yes
> indeed they would ultimately have a say in any trades, etc.

What? That's fiction of your own authoring. Players have been
invoking their rights to the xtrade and xmove clause for years. The
difference this year was the media and the village mob tried to chase
them out after the Org turned it into a public spectacle.

> The org reacted
> poorly, although if Kubina did indeed agree to waive then changed his mind,
> I can't blame Fletch for being a bit pissy with him.

He didn't. Flinch said he did, and roasted him publicly on deadline
day. Only Kubina had never agreed. Flinch was a public eyesore with
temper tantrum that took the headlines.

> > ... and I know they are within their rights,
>
> Disagree again.  Your post leans on them being creeps for not getting
> with the exit program.
>
> ===============
> I never called them creeps,

That's why I posted leans on them - that's how it reads.

>... 'they' (read, the players) certainly were within
> their rights to say 'no mas' to any moves, which they did.

You just said above that they weren't, that they understood it's
really something else - they'll nod and have a say in the destination.

>  Sure, I wish
> they'd have left, I said the same thing last year, but my personal feelings
> on the matter certainly does nothing to void a legal and valid part of a
> players contract.

Your statements have the big 'but' in them. And yea, your dissin' the
players to the point of saying the clause didn't mean the clause until
the players derailed the normal biz-game. Problem is, the records
don't show it that way. The players, with the exception of McCabe who
privately said 'show me the deal' (they never did), said from before
the getgo that they weren't going to accept a trade. It was the Org,
including the deliberate hiring of Flinch ("look, we all know why I'm
here"), that went ahead and created a huge train wreck.

And the problem with the crowd was - they ... just ... didn't ...
listen. Every media report had your format - the refusal, the 'but',
and then the trade rumour. It could have been, and should have been,
a complete and total non-issue. Second best would have been behind-
closed-doors respectfully trying to see if something could be done.

> > but damn if that doesn't hurt knowing what could have been...
>
> That's probably exactly what McKenzie wants you to feel.  Notice how
> the media skips over similar nyets like Blake, and Redden.  McKenzie
> was high on his horse predicting the Frozen would thaw and pack up -
> he's never been held accountable for his part in this, has he?
>
> ===============
> Given the fact that many of the 'no-movers' knew they'd be shown the door
> one way or another, I think more than a few we're surprised that nobody
> cracked under the pressure.

There was no such 'knew they'd be shown the door'. The first guy out
in that case would have been Kubina. There was shock when Tucker was
bought out. Sundin was never 'shown the door' - they just discovered
that they'd pushed him into reassessing his career goals. They stated
over and over again they wanted Sundin back.

>  Not sure about the comment on Mackenzie...  he
> was simply stating a fact in terms of what had been agreed to.

McKenzie was a prime perp, along with Cox, and Simmons, and Dreger.
The Org simply didn't listen to what everyone from Sundin on down was
stating from the middle of January on. There is no other side of the
coin. And he's not just 'stating the facts', his digging up old
manure that came from his pantload.

I'm lost on where you came up with this stuff. The Org made a
gigantic mess of the whole thing. From here it's the kind of roster
disaster that will never be smoothed over. It's spun it's own post-
event mythology about lack of leadership, country club atmosphere, and
deliberately having the worst team in the league - to win the Cup.
 >> Stay informed about: Sigh... 

"owl" wrote in message

On Dec 16, 10:29 pm, "GS" wrote:
> "owl" wrote in message
>
>
> On Dec 16, 8:50 pm, "GS" wrote:
>
> > Mackenzie just mentioned AGAIN, that trader Cliff had deals in place and
> > approved by both teams for:
>
> > Kaberle for Carter + 1st Round Pick
>
> > Sundin for Grabovski, Higgins + 1st Round Pick
>
> > I know they signed those NTC contracts in good faith,
>
> Which 'they'. The Org didn't sign them in good faith. The Org broke
> faith with their signature, and carried on a public mob and browbeat
> campaign to try and justify their hypocritical agenda when the world
> didn't unfold they way they hoped. Flinch threw a public temper
> tantrum over the Kubina fall-through; McCabe's position was
> misrepresented; and the other two were tied to the streetcar rails.
>
> ===============
> They being the players. The players signed them with the nod that yes
> indeed they would ultimately have a say in any trades, etc.

What? That's fiction of your own authoring. Players have been
invoking their rights to the xtrade and xmove clause for years. The
difference this year was the media and the village mob tried to chase
them out after the Org turned it into a public spectacle.

> The org reacted
> poorly, although if Kubina did indeed agree to waive then changed his
> mind,
> I can't blame Fletch for being a bit pissy with him.

He didn't. Flinch said he did, and roasted him publicly on deadline
day. Only Kubina had never agreed. Flinch was a public eyesore with
temper tantrum that took the headlines.

> > ... and I know they are within their rights,
>
> Disagree again. Your post leans on them being creeps for not getting
> with the exit program.
>
> ===============
> I never called them creeps,

That's why I posted leans on them - that's how it reads.

>... 'they' (read, the players) certainly were within
> their rights to say 'no mas' to any moves, which they did.

You just said above that they weren't, that they understood it's
really something else - they'll nod and have a say in the destination.

> Sure, I wish
> they'd have left, I said the same thing last year, but my personal
> feelings
> on the matter certainly does nothing to void a legal and valid part of a
> players contract.

Your statements have the big 'but' in them. And yea, your dissin' the
players to the point of saying the clause didn't mean the clause until
the players derailed the normal biz-game. Problem is, the records
don't show it that way. The players, with the exception of McCabe who
privately said 'show me the deal' (they never did), said from before
the getgo that they weren't going to accept a trade. It was the Org,
including the deliberate hiring of Flinch ("look, we all know why I'm
here"), that went ahead and created a huge train wreck.

And the problem with the crowd was - they ... just ... didn't ...
listen. Every media report had your format - the refusal, the 'but',
and then the trade rumour. It could have been, and should have been,
a complete and total non-issue. Second best would have been behind-
closed-doors respectfully trying to see if something could be done.

> > but damn if that doesn't hurt knowing what could have been...
>
> That's probably exactly what McKenzie wants you to feel. Notice how
> the media skips over similar nyets like Blake, and Redden. McKenzie
> was high on his horse predicting the Frozen would thaw and pack up -
> he's never been held accountable for his part in this, has he?
>
> ===============
> Given the fact that many of the 'no-movers' knew they'd be shown the door
> one way or another, I think more than a few we're surprised that nobody
> cracked under the pressure.

There was no such 'knew they'd be shown the door'. The first guy out
in that case would have been Kubina. There was shock when Tucker was
bought out. Sundin was never 'shown the door' - they just discovered
that they'd pushed him into reassessing his career goals. They stated
over and over again they wanted Sundin back.

> Not sure about the comment on Mackenzie... he
> was simply stating a fact in terms of what had been agreed to.

McKenzie was a prime perp, along with Cox, and Simmons, and Dreger.
The Org simply didn't listen to what everyone from Sundin on down was
stating from the middle of January on. There is no other side of the
coin. And he's not just 'stating the facts', his digging up old
manure that came from his pantload.

I'm lost on where you came up with this stuff. The Org made a
gigantic mess of the whole thing. From here it's the kind of roster
disaster that will never be smoothed over. It's spun it's own post-
event mythology about lack of leadership, country club atmosphere, and
deliberately having the worst team in the league - to win the Cup.


========================

Owl, there's not a single fan, media member, org member, etc that you agree
on anything with. You're picking a fight with one of your only supporters
here, and to be honest it's getting a little thin.

I never implied any of what you've put on me, and honestly I still don't
believe it. I can't state more clearly, that I think the 'frozen five' were
ultimately in the right, but you've already painted me with the same brush
as Cox. Those are fighting words my friend. I really don't even know how
to respond.

The fact remains, despite your objections, that the Leafs would be MUCH
better off had those guys waived their legitimate NTC's, and no matter how
you want to spin it, that's the truth. Why you insist on taking these
discussions to a more personal level is totally beyond me. I've literally
been here under different monikers for 7+ years, and have watched you lump
such great contributors as Ken, Tunnel, etc under the troll bridge. What
gives?
 >> Stay informed about: Sigh... 

"GS" wrote in message

> Mackenzie just mentioned AGAIN, that trader Cliff had deals in place and
> approved by both teams for:
>
> Kaberle for Carter + 1st Round Pick
>
> Sundin for Grabovski, Higgins + 1st Round Pick
>
> I know they signed those NTC contracts in good faith, and I know they are
> within their rights, but damn if that doesn't hurt knowing what could have
> been...

Yeah, the Silver Fox couldn't get it done. Maybe trashing the team leaders
publicly after being in the job for two minutes in retrospect wasn't a the
best strategy.
 >> Stay informed about: Sigh... 

GS wrote:

> I really don't even know how to respond.

Don't. Ignore his twaddle like most of us do.

--
Golan Klinger
Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest.
 >> Stay informed about: Sigh... 

On Dec 17, 12:52 pm, "Will" wrote:

> Yeah, the Silver Fox couldn't get it done.  Maybe trashing the team leaders
> publicly after being in the job for two minutes in retrospect wasn't a the
> best strategy.

From here, it still goes back to a blame-monkey that had to stick to a
back. Richard Peddie turned it into a power struggle he understood,
and then used scorched earth tactics on his opposition to save his own
weak arse. At the end of the entire meltdown, he's the last man
standing.
 >> Stay informed about: Sigh... 

On Dec 16, 5:50 pm, "GS" wrote:
> Mackenzie just mentioned AGAIN, that trader Cliff had deals in place and
> approved by both teams for:
>
> Kaberle for Carter + 1st Round Pick
>
> Sundin for Grabovski, Higgins + 1st Round Pick
>
> I know they signed those NTC contracts in good faith, and I know they are
> within their rights, but damn if that doesn't hurt knowing what could have
> been...

Tell me about it. It makes me cry on the inside and even sometimes on
the outside thinking about it. And my only consolation was at least
this year they were going to be bad enough to guarantee a first or
second pick. Man, where were those shootout victories a couple years
ago when they miss the playoffs by a point?

I think our only hope now lies in the possibility that Burke might
know what he is doing and have the gonads to stick with some kind of
plan long enough to rebuild a new model of Leafs. It seems pretty
evident that this year is otherwise a write off. They aren't going to
be good enough to make the playoffs and they're playing too well to
guarantee more serious talent in through the draft. I guess they
could be using this year to develop that team system for the 2nd to
4th line supporting crowd for a few upcoming acquisions down the
road. It does seem possible that one of Malkin or Crosby will
eventually get pried out of Pittsburgh while still before his prime,
maybe the team will be ready for someone like that in a few years if
they're not going to be unlucky enough to snag a couple of last place
place finishes. Until then the Leafs are basically middle of the
road, mediocre-at-best cannon fodder. Sigh indeed.
 >> Stay informed about: Sigh... 

On Dec 17, 2:54 am, "GS" wrote:
> "owl" wrote in message
>
>
> On Dec 16, 10:29 pm, "GS" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "owl" wrote in message
>
> >
> > On Dec 16, 8:50 pm, "GS" wrote:
>
> > > Mackenzie just mentioned AGAIN, that trader Cliff had deals in place and
> > > approved by both teams for:
>
> > > Kaberle for Carter + 1st Round Pick
>
> > > Sundin for Grabovski, Higgins + 1st Round Pick
>
> > > I know they signed those NTC contracts in good faith,
>
> > Which 'they'. The Org didn't sign them in good faith. The Org broke
> > faith with their signature, and carried on a public mob and browbeat
> > campaign to try and justify their hypocritical agenda when the world
> > didn't unfold they way they hoped. Flinch threw a public temper
> > tantrum over the Kubina fall-through; McCabe's position was
> > misrepresented; and the other two were tied to the streetcar rails.
>
> > ===============
> > They being the players. The players signed them with the nod that yes
> > indeed they would ultimately have a say in any trades, etc.
>
> What?  That's fiction of your own authoring.  Players have been
> invoking their rights to the xtrade and xmove clause for years.  The
> difference this year was the media and the village mob tried to chase
> them out after the Org turned it into a public spectacle.
>
> > The org reacted
> > poorly, although if Kubina did indeed agree to waive then changed his
> > mind,
> > I can't blame Fletch for being a bit pissy with him.
>
> He didn't.  Flinch said he did, and roasted him publicly on deadline
> day.  Only Kubina had never agreed.  Flinch was a public eyesore with
> temper tantrum that took the headlines.
>
> > > ... and I know they are within their rights,
>
> > Disagree again. Your post leans on them being creeps for not getting
> > with the exit program.
>
> > ===============
> > I never called them creeps,
>
> That's why I posted leans on them - that's how it reads.
>
> >...  'they' (read, the players) certainly were within
> > their rights to say 'no mas' to any moves, which they did.
>
> You just said above that they weren't, that they understood it's
> really something else - they'll nod and have a say in the destination.
>
> > Sure, I wish
> > they'd have left, I said the same thing last year, but my personal
> > feelings
> > on the matter certainly does nothing to void a legal and valid part of a
> > players contract.
>
> Your statements have the big 'but' in them.  And yea, your dissin' the
> players to the point of saying the clause didn't mean the clause until
> the players derailed the normal biz-game.  Problem is, the records
> don't show it that way.  The players, with the exception of McCabe who
> privately said 'show me the deal' (they never did), said from before
> the getgo that they weren't going to accept a trade.  It was the Org,
> including the deliberate hiring of Flinch ("look, we all know why I'm
> here"), that went ahead and created a huge train wreck.
>
> And the problem with the crowd was - they ... just ... didn't ...
> listen.  Every media report had your format - the refusal, the 'but',
> and then the trade rumour.  It could have been, and should have been,
> a complete and total non-issue.  Second best would have been behind-
> closed-doors respectfully trying to see if something could be done.
>
> > > but damn if that doesn't hurt knowing what could have been...
>
> > That's probably exactly what McKenzie wants you to feel. Notice how
> > the media skips over similar nyets like Blake, and Redden. McKenzie
> > was high on his horse predicting the Frozen would thaw and pack up -
> > he's never been held accountable for his part in this, has he?
>
> > ===============
> > Given the fact that many of the 'no-movers' knew they'd be shown the door
> > one way or another, I think more than a few we're surprised that nobody
> > cracked under the pressure.
>
> There was no such 'knew they'd be shown the door'.  The first guy out
> in that case would have been Kubina.  There was shock when Tucker was
> bought out.   Sundin was never 'shown the door' - they just discovered
> that they'd pushed him into reassessing his career goals.  They stated
> over and over again they wanted Sundin back.
>
> > Not sure about the comment on Mackenzie... he
> > was simply stating a fact in terms of what had been agreed to.
>
> McKenzie was a prime perp, along with Cox, and Simmons, and Dreger.
> The Org simply didn't listen to what everyone from Sundin on down was
> stating from the middle of January on.  There is no other side of the
> coin.  And he's not just 'stating the facts', his digging up old
> manure that came from his pantload.
>
> I'm lost on where you came up with this stuff.  The Org made a
> gigantic mess of the whole thing.  From here it's the kind of roster
> disaster that will never be smoothed over.  It's spun it's own post-
> event mythology about lack of leadership, country club atmosphere, and
> deliberately having the worst team in the league - to win the Cup.
>
> ========================
>
> Owl, there's not a single fan, media member, org member, etc that you agree
> on anything with.  You're picking a fight with one of your only supporters
> here, and to be honest it's getting a little thin.
>
> I never implied any of what you've put on me, and honestly I still don't
> believe it.  I can't state more clearly, that I think the 'frozen five' were
> ultimately in the right, but you've already painted me with the same brush
> as Cox.  Those are fighting words my friend.  I really don't even know how
> to respond.
>
> The fact remains, despite your objections, that the Leafs would be MUCH
> better off had those guys waived their legitimate NTC's, and no matter how
> you want to spin it, that's the truth.  Why you insist on taking these
> discussions to a more personal level is totally beyond me.  I've literally
> been here under different monikers for 7+ years, and have watched you lump
> such great contributors as Ken, Tunnel, etc under the troll bridge.  What
> gives?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I am sure that the agents for those players told them that if the org
wanted to get rid of them badly they will buy them out like they did
with Tucker. Then they can sign with whoever they want and double dip.
The reason why McCabe waited in the summer was because he wanted the
Tucker treatment. Flinch was pissed off because he was brought in to
start the rebuild and he got stumped at every turn. The tail wagged
the dog way too long with this franchise and I am glad fletch got
pissed off and decided to play hardball with these guys. Fletcher was
trying to do what was best for the franchise the players were doing
what was best for them. Both the GM and the fans care about what is
best for the crest on the front not the names on the back.
 >> Stay informed about: Sigh...