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Since: Sep 15, 2007
Posts: 44
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(Msg. 46) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:28 am
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Chris" <noone RemoveThis @goaway.com> wrote in message
news:adi8f39re12ddeagtvco69m6hj2d89nko3@4ax.com...
>
>>> paired with a d-man as good as Hannan
>>
>>
>>Boy there's a line of the day.
>>
>>"never been paired with a d-man as good as Hannan."
>> I love it!
>>
>>
>>Lidstrom, Rafalski,Chelios...Is this the best you got??????
>>LOL!
>
> Would you please do me a favor?
>
> List, in no particular order, the top 20 defensive defensemen in the
> NHL, in your opinion.
There are two problems with that question, from your perspective.
1) Hannan's not in the top 20. If we expanded it out to 30 I could maybe
get him in, but certainly not 20. There are at least 15 dmen better
defensively than Hannan in the West alone. Hannan's biggest deal is that
he's not demonstrably better than any of the after top 15-20 crowd where the
difference between #'s 22-25 and 40-50 aren't that great, IMO. He's a
steady, sturdy player who plays a solid defensive game and can log a ton of
minutes but who's going to give you next to nothing offensively. I mean, is
he better defensively than Priessing, Suter, Weber, Kuba, Salo, Regehr,
Jackman, Witt, Phaneuf, Beauchamin, Kubina, Bieska, and maybe 5-10 more guys
just like them? It's hard to concoct an argument which puts him noticeably
ahead of most of those players, if any. Then you add in the Lidstrom's,
Pronger's, Niedermayer's, Zubov's and such of the world and you get like
15-20 guys before you even reach that first group of players I mentioned.
It's good the Avs signed him because obviously Skrastins wasn't cut out to
face top-line opposition night in and night out, I just think putting him in
the top 20 anything at his position is a pretty big leap.
2) Of the top 10 or so dmen in the NHL I'd have a hard time finding a
'defensive dman' to put there. Most of the guys who are as good or better
than Hannan defensively are also rather better than him offensively, too.
When you limit the discussion to 'defensive dmen', you're essentially trying
to ignore the greater portion of the best dmen in the league.
HD. |
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(Msg. 47) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:28 am
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:28:22 -0400, "HockeyinHD" <hidden RemoveThis @home.com>
wrote:
>
>"Chris" <noone RemoveThis @goaway.com> wrote in message
>news:adi8f39re12ddeagtvco69m6hj2d89nko3@4ax.com...
>>
>>>> paired with a d-man as good as Hannan
>>>
>>>
>>>Boy there's a line of the day.
>>>
>>>"never been paired with a d-man as good as Hannan."
>>> I love it!
>>>
>>>
>>>Lidstrom, Rafalski,Chelios...Is this the best you got??????
>>>LOL!
>>
>> Would you please do me a favor?
>>
>> List, in no particular order, the top 20 defensive defensemen in the
>> NHL, in your opinion.
>
>There are two problems with that question, from your perspective.
I simply asked for the list.
>1) Hannan's not in the top 20. If we expanded it out to 30 I could maybe
>get him in, but certainly not 20. There are at least 15 dmen better
>defensively than Hannan in the West alone. Hannan's biggest deal is that
>he's not demonstrably better than any of the after top 15-20 crowd where the
>difference between #'s 22-25 and 40-50 aren't that great, IMO. He's a
>steady, sturdy player who plays a solid defensive game and can log a ton of
>minutes but who's going to give you next to nothing offensively. I mean, is
>he better defensively than Priessing, Suter, Weber, Kuba, Salo, Regehr,
>Jackman, Witt, Phaneuf, Beauchamin, Kubina, Bieska, and maybe 5-10 more guys
>just like them? It's hard to concoct an argument which puts him noticeably
>ahead of most of those players, if any. Then you add in the Lidstrom's,
>Pronger's, Niedermayer's, Zubov's and such of the world and you get like
>15-20 guys before you even reach that first group of players I mentioned.
>It's good the Avs signed him because obviously Skrastins wasn't cut out to
>face top-line opposition night in and night out, I just think putting him in
>the top 20 anything at his position is a pretty big leap.
You are welcome to post your top 20 as well. I'd love to see it.
>2) Of the top 10 or so dmen in the NHL I'd have a hard time finding a
>'defensive dman' to put there. Most of the guys who are as good or better
>than Hannan defensively are also rather better than him offensively, too.
I'm not interested in the best overall defenseman list at this point.
I'm interested in the defensive defenseman list.
Chris |
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(Msg. 48) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:05 am
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Chris" <noone.DeleteThis@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:af8af311c7ql0i3ptcod2d6t78e0gnba6m@4ax.com...
>
>>> I will wait for your answer.
>>
>>
>>Chris...the preliminary list I have put together says your argument is in
>>trouble.
>>
>>One dimenshinal [sp] Scott Hannen doesnt break the top 15.
>
> Uh huh.
>
> The list, please...
Great, he calls Hannan one dimensional, but some how the one dimesnional
Rafalski
gets omitted. He won't list the top 20 because he likely couldn't name 20
d-men in the entire league. >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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(Msg. 49) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Chris" <noone RemoveThis @goaway.com> wrote in message
news:bh8af3hr4999h16k72ei06maa77ejknsmj@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:28:22 -0400, "HockeyinHD" <hidden RemoveThis @home.com>
>>There are two problems with that question, from your perspective.
>
> I simply asked for the list.
Why would you ask for a list you wouldn't expect Hannan to be on? If you do
expect him to be on it, and I've just mentioned he's not, why would you need
the whole list?
> You are welcome to post your top 20 as well. I'd love to see it.
To what end? If Hannan's not on it...
>>2) Of the top 10 or so dmen in the NHL I'd have a hard time finding a
>>'defensive dman' to put there. Most of the guys who are as good or better
>>than Hannan defensively are also rather better than him offensively, too.
>
> I'm not interested in the best overall defenseman list at this point.
> I'm interested in the defensive defenseman list.
When you're talking about guys at their position why would you want to cut
out the majority of the best guys at their position right from the get-go?
So, since Pronger's better than Hannan defensively, but he's also a solid
offensive player as well... we can't include him on a list ahead of Hannan?
Seriously, what would this 'list' end up demonstrating? That Hannan's among
the upper third of the best one-dimentional dmen, but only a specific
dimention and likely the least rare of the two, in the NHL? Is there a
trophy or something for that? :)
Let me ask a serious question here, just to illustrate how putting so fine a
point on this list essentially makes it meaningless: Is Hannan a better
defensive dman than Chelios? Sturdier, yes. Capable of playing more
minutes over a longer period of time? Undoubtably. Better from shift to
shift, strictly looking at how they play while they're on the ice? I highly
doubt it. All other things (salary, contract length, etc) the same would I
take Chelios over Hannan? Not in a million years. And that's just
comparing two 'defensive' dmen to each other.
HD. >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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(Msg. 50) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:37 am
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Freedom Elz" <kred RemoveThis @tifle.net> wrote in message
news:6baJi.1389$372.523@read2.cgocable.net...
> Great, he calls Hannan one dimensional, but some how the one dimesnional
> Rafalski
> gets omitted.
Is Scott Neidermayer one-dimensional? Nick Lidstrom?
See, here's the problem with the whole one-dimensional debate Offensive vs.
Defensive dmen:
When you're talking about 'defensive' dmen you're talking about guys who, by
and large, do exactly nothing offensively. They don't score, tally assists,
or even handle the puck with all that much ability. They are, however, good
to great at playing the man, clearing the net-front, stuff like that.
On the other hand, when you're talking about 'offensive' dmen, you're
usually talking about guys who are putting up goals, tons of assists, fluid
with the puck, all that stuff... but you rarely see the dearth of
performance on the defensive side with them that you see on the offensive
side with the 'defensive' dmen, see what I mean? If a guy isn't at least
mediocre defensively he doesn't stay in the league, while there are
gajillions of guys who are somewhere between below mediocre to outrageously
incompetent offensively and yet can hang around.
To explain it numerically, it's like saying your typical offensive
defenseman is a 7-9 on offense but only a 4-5 on defense while the defensive
dmen are 1-3 on offense but 7-9's on defense.
HD. >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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(Msg. 51) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:52 am
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"HockeyinHD" <hidden DeleteThis @home.com> wrote in message
news:8qmdnfb_wre8gmjbnZ2dnUVZ_qqgnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>
> "Freedom Elz" <mediadawg1 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1190384178.232508.325360@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Well, it could be the fact that Calgary was the second to last team in
>> the league
>> for 5 on 5 scoring don't you think?
>
> Was that because of him or in spite of him? How can you tell the
> difference?
Well the fact that Calagary went out and traded for more offensive players
up
front tells me that it wasn't because of him. Its not like the guy played 60
minutes a game.
>>> Really? Who said stuff like that? What'd they say? I haven't read
>>> this
>>> group in ages, so fill me in. If there's people running around saying
>>> Kronwall's going to win a Norris, they need to be set straight.
>>
>> Nobody's saying it now that they've seen him play on a regular basis.
>> However,
>> before last season the hyperbole was palpable and there were certainly
>> comments
>> about him being Lidstrom's replacement when the time came.
>
> Again I ask, who said these things? What were their comments? If the
> comments were as percasive as you seem to be implying, surely a few
> examples shouldn't be to onerous a request, right?
Yeah, you know what it is, I typed in Kronwall and Norris and 18 pages came
up, I'm not wasting my time digging through it. If you choose to believe
that not
one of the homers in here ever made such a claim, that's fine, giddyup.
>>> It's a question that needs to be answered, Elz.
>>
>> As far his being the "egg" as you have suggested, no it doesn't, the
>> Flames teams
>> that he was a part of suffered from a dearth of scoring forwards,
>> there is no disputing that.
>
> No, I agree with that. Yet, were Leopold the guy with the flair for the
> outlet you seem to suggest he is, one would think the team would not have
> languished as offensively as it did.
So let me get this straight, if your good at moving the puck out of your own
zone,
you have to put up how many points?
> I suppose I just find it a little odd that the year Leopold's gone the
> team goes from 27th in goals to 7th.
Was Alex Tanguay there when Leopold was? Did they have Huselius there when
Leopold was there? The Flames added two 75+ point guys up front it makes
sense they would score more often.
>>> Why was his own personal production so bad at
>>> ES?
>>
>> Why was the entire Flames team's personal production so bad at ES?
>
> If your agrument is that Leopold's offense was not appreciably better than
> the Flames team as a whole, you'll get no argument from me.
And vice versa?
>>> The 15 game season Elz? Seriously, this is what you're using? Yikes.
>>
>> Well, its all I have to use from last year and Leopold in the post
>> Sutter/Calgary era, I
>> could point to the fact that he's scored 4 points in 2 pre-season
>> games this year if
>> you like
>
> Oh boy. How many pre-season goals has Osgood let in?
Osgood who? >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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(Msg. 52) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:22 pm
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Chris" <noone.DeleteThis@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:adi8f39re12ddeagtvco69m6hj2d89nko3@4ax.com...
>
>>> paired with a d-man as good as Hannan
>>
>>
>>Boy there's a line of the day.
>>
>>"never been paired with a d-man as good as Hannan."
>> I love it!
>>
>>
>>Lidstrom, Rafalski,Chelios...Is this the best you got??????
>>LOL!
>
> Would you please do me a favor?
>
> List, in no particular order, the top 20 defensive defensemen in the
> NHL, in your opinion.
Ok Chris. I've put a lot of thought into this and after sleeping on it all
night, reminiscing about it this morning...and constantly page clicking on
Hockeydb.com....this is what I've come up with. Now remember I've tried to
be fair and unbiased but probably 40 years of watching Red Wing hockey may
have swayed a couple of these. Here goes.........
1. Lidstrom
2. Chelios
3. Rafalski
4. Kronwall
5. Lilja
6. Lebda
7. Quincy
8. Ference
9. Kindl
10.Meech
11. Norton
12. B. Smith
13. D. Smith
14. Blatak
15. Ericsson
16. Pyett
17. Rufenach
18. Seluyanov
19. Fischer
20. Huber
21. Hannen >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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(Msg. 53) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Freedom Elz" <kred.TakeThisOut@tifle.net> wrote in message
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> Bullshit, list them.
Pronger, Neidermeyer, Lidstrom, Beauchamin, Phaneuf, Ohlund, Bieksa,
Mitchell, Regehr, Jackman, (Jason) Smith, Norstrom, McKee, Hamrlik, Modry.
At least.
> So far you haven't even come up with 5 in the guys you listed.
According to you. If the question was 'Do I think there are 15 guys
wherever better in any concievable way than Hannan according to Elz?', then
obviously I would have said no.
>> It's good the Avs signed him because obviously Skrastins wasn't cut out
>> to face top-line opposition night in and night out, I just think putting
>> him in the top 20 anything at his position is a pretty big leap.
>
> But you have yet to list 20 guys that are better defensively than he is.
Again, according to you. What, did you honestly think I'd go into this
believing for one second you'd allow yourself to agree with more than maybe
two or three of the names I mentioned? Please.
> Look it in the same light as a defensive forward. Is Pahlsson better than
> Crosby? Is he
> better defensively than Crosby or any of the top 10 scoring forwards in
> the league?
>
> Hell yeah, his specialty is defense therefore comparing him by how many
> points he
> scores is niether here nor there unless you compare him to other defensive
> forwards.
You're missing the point.
HD. >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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(Msg. 54) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:54 pm
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Freedom Elz" <kred.DeleteThis@tifle.net> wrote in message
news:rTaJi.3948$tx1.1815@read1.cgocable.net...
>
> "HockeyinHD" <hidden.DeleteThis@home.com> wrote in message
> news:8qmdnfb_wre8gmjbnZ2dnUVZ_qqgnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>>
>> "Freedom Elz" <mediadawg1.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1190384178.232508.325360@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> Well, it could be the fact that Calgary was the second to last team in
>>> the league
>>> for 5 on 5 scoring don't you think?
>>
>> Was that because of him or in spite of him? How can you tell the
>> difference?
>
> Well the fact that Calagary went out and traded for more offensive players
> up
> front tells me that it wasn't because of him. Its not like the guy played
> 60
> minutes a game.
So in order to fix their offense they had to trade an (allegedly) decent to
good offensive player?
> Yeah, you know what it is, I typed in Kronwall and Norris and 18 pages
> came
> up, I'm not wasting my time digging through it. If you choose to believe
> that not
> one of the homers in here ever made such a claim, that's fine, giddyup.
So in other words, you can't recall a single instance of it happening.
Whew, for a second there I thought I was going to have to be stern with
someone being pretty silly about Kronwall. False alarm, apparently.
> So let me get this straight, if your good at moving the puck out of your
> own zone,
> you have to put up how many points?
More than 35 at ES in 229 games, for starters.
> Was Alex Tanguay there when Leopold was? Did they have Huselius there when
> Leopold was there? The Flames added two 75+ point guys up front it makes
> sense they would score more often.
But how did those forwards ever get the puck without Leopold there setting
them up? You don't mean to suggest that Leopold's offensive ability was so
easily replaced on the blue line, do you?
>> If your agrument is that Leopold's offense was not appreciably better
>> than the Flames team as a whole, you'll get no argument from me.
>
> And vice versa?
Correct. This is why I said it's a question which needs to be answered,
Elz. I've seen nothing to date which indicates the answer is positive, so
I'm curious to see what develops. Since you're disallowed his production in
Calgary as being anything more than coincidental to the teams general
offensive lack, you've taken the position that Leopold's good at it... until
you see definitive proof to the contrary. That's fine, I guess... it's just
based on hope and not fact.
>> Oh boy. How many pre-season goals has Osgood let in?
>
> Osgood who?
Exactly.
HD. >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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(Msg. 55) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:34 pm
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>Ok Chris. I've put a lot of thought into this and after sleeping on it all
>night, reminiscing about it this morning...and constantly page clicking on
>Hockeydb.com....this is what I've come up with. Now remember I've tried to
>be fair and unbiased but probably 40 years of watching Red Wing hockey may
>have swayed a couple of these. Here goes.........
>
>1. Lidstrom
>2. Chelios
>3. Rafalski
>4. Kronwall
>5. Lilja
>6. Lebda
>7. Quincy
>8. Ference
>9. Kindl
>10.Meech
>11. Norton
>12. B. Smith
>13. D. Smith
>14. Blatak
>15. Ericsson
>16. Pyett
>17. Rufenach
>18. Seluyanov
>19. Fischer
>20. Huber
>21. Hannen
Funny guy. See, you and HD make claims about Hannan's abilities or
lack thereof, yet dodge and dodge and dodge the point again and again
when I ask you to simply rank the guys ahead of such an allegedly
average defensive player.
But, since you can't do it, I know the truth just as well as you do.
Chris >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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(Msg. 56) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:40 pm
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:45:09 -0400, "HockeyinHD" <hidden DeleteThis @home.com>
wrote:
>
>"Freedom Elz" <kred DeleteThis @tifle.net> wrote in message
>news:CLaJi.3947$tx1.149@read1.cgocable.net...
>
>> Bullshit, list them.
>
>Pronger, Neidermeyer, Lidstrom, Beauchamin, Phaneuf, Ohlund, Bieksa,
>Mitchell, Regehr, Jackman, (Jason) Smith, Norstrom, McKee, Hamrlik, Modry.
>At least.
Well, it only took me asking about 9 times, but at last we get a list.
And a pretty decent one also.
Guys I'd put ahead of Hannan include the two Anaheim guys, Lidstrom,
Regehr, Norstrom and Phaneuf. On par would be Ohlund, Mitchell,
perhaps McKee, and I also like Volchenkov from Ottawa. Jason Smith is
a nice tough player, but slow as all hell and doesn't belong on the
list. Nor Hamrlik.
So, we agree on 5 of them being better than Hannan, I think you've got
a few that don't belong there, so let's split the difference - Hannan
is somewhere between 6 and 10 defensively then?
Or, would you like to put forth a more comprehensive list?
Chris >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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(Msg. 57) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:42 pm
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 11:25:25 -0400, "HockeyinHD" <hidden.TakeThisOut@home.com>
wrote:
>
>"Chris" <noone.TakeThisOut@goaway.com> wrote in message
>news:bh8af3hr4999h16k72ei06maa77ejknsmj@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:28:22 -0400, "HockeyinHD" <hidden.TakeThisOut@home.com>
>
>>>There are two problems with that question, from your perspective.
>>
>> I simply asked for the list.
>
>Why would you ask for a list you wouldn't expect Hannan to be on? If you do
>expect him to be on it, and I've just mentioned he's not, why would you need
>the whole list?
>
>> You are welcome to post your top 20 as well. I'd love to see it.
>
>To what end? If Hannan's not on it...
If you don't want to post a list, don't post one. I have a funny
feeling that your list is going to have a slight smell of homerism,
but it'd be interesting to see. If your list is going to have guys
like Poti on it, then please don't post it. If your list is going to
have guys like Chelios on it, go ahead. It might be fun.
What I was hoping for, was for the list to have guys like Regehr,
Pronger, Norstrom, etc. on it, so the issue at hand could be discussed
in a reasonable manner.
>>>2) Of the top 10 or so dmen in the NHL I'd have a hard time finding a
>>>'defensive dman' to put there. Most of the guys who are as good or better
>>>than Hannan defensively are also rather better than him offensively, too.
>>
>> I'm not interested in the best overall defenseman list at this point.
>> I'm interested in the defensive defenseman list.
>
>When you're talking about guys at their position why would you want to cut
>out the majority of the best guys at their position right from the get-go?
>So, since Pronger's better than Hannan defensively, but he's also a solid
>offensive player as well... we can't include him on a list ahead of Hannan?
Of course you can. I didn't ask for the list of non-quality offensive
defensemen. I asked for a list of the best defensive defensemen. If
they're good at offense also, great.
Chris >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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(Msg. 58) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:13 pm
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"HockeyinHD" <hidden.DeleteThis@home.com> wrote in message
news:H5mdnSf6YJUH1WjbnZ2dnUVZ_vninZ2d@insightbb.com...
>
> "Freedom Elz" <kred.DeleteThis@tifle.net> wrote in message
> news:rTaJi.3948$tx1.1815@read1.cgocable.net...
>>
>> "HockeyinHD" <hidden.DeleteThis@home.com> wrote in message
>> news:8qmdnfb_wre8gmjbnZ2dnUVZ_qqgnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>>>
>>> "Freedom Elz" <mediadawg1.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1190384178.232508.325360@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>> Well, it could be the fact that Calgary was the second to last team in
>>>> the league
>>>> for 5 on 5 scoring don't you think?
>>>
>>> Was that because of him or in spite of him? How can you tell the
>>> difference?
>>
>> Well the fact that Calagary went out and traded for more offensive
>> players up
>> front tells me that it wasn't because of him. Its not like the guy played
>> 60
>> minutes a game.
>
> So in order to fix their offense they had to trade an (allegedly) decent
> to good offensive player?
I've never said that he was either. I said he was a solid d man that moves
the puck
well out of his own zone. Calgary needed a first line centre, they though
Tanguay
could fill that role, that's why they made the deal.
>> Yeah, you know what it is, I typed in Kronwall and Norris and 18 pages
>> came
>> up, I'm not wasting my time digging through it. If you choose to believe
>> that not
>> one of the homers in here ever made such a claim, that's fine, giddyup.
>
> So in other words, you can't recall a single instance of it happening.
> Whew, for a second there I thought I was going to have to be stern with
> someone being pretty silly about Kronwall. False alarm, apparently.
Oh I can recall all kinds of instnaces of it happening. I just don't see the
point in
diggin through 18 pages worth of posts to find out whether it was Hockguy/
Tran/
Slider/Pussay/Yournamefirst, is it really that important to you to find out
which
one of those dolts was responsible?
>> So let me get this straight, if your good at moving the puck out of your
>> own zone,
>> you have to put up how many points?
>
> More than 35 at ES in 229 games, for starters.
Says who and why?
>> Was Alex Tanguay there when Leopold was? Did they have Huselius there
>> when Leopold was there? The Flames added two 75+ point guys up front it
>> makes sense they would score more often.
>
> But how did those forwards ever get the puck without Leopold there setting
> them up? You don't mean to suggest that Leopold's offensive ability was
> so easily replaced on the blue line, do you?
The blueline clearly wasn't the problem.
>>> If your agrument is that Leopold's offense was not appreciably better
>>> than the Flames team as a whole, you'll get no argument from me.
>>
>> And vice versa?
>
> Correct. This is why I said it's a question which needs to be answered,
> Elz. I've seen nothing to date which indicates the answer is positive, so
> I'm curious to see what develops.
>Since you're disallowed his production in Calgary as being anything more
>than coincidental to the teams general offensive lack,
Well it is a pretty stupid claim. If the blueline was the problem why did
they bring two75 point forwards?
>you've taken the position that Leopold's good at it... until you see
>definitive proof to the contrary. That's fine, I guess... it's just based
>on hope and not fact.
Not really, if priduction from the blueline was the problem they would have
brought
in some offensive d-men instead of forwards.
>>> Oh boy. How many pre-season goals has Osgood let in?
>>
>> Osgood who?
>
> Exactly.
I hear he's holding back Grigorenko's production because he's not getting
enough assists. >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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External
Since: Nov 11, 2006
Posts: 118
|
(Msg. 59) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:20 pm
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"HockeyinHD" <hidden.TakeThisOut@home.com> wrote in message
news:H5mdnST6YJUH1WjbnZ2dnUVZ_vmlnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>
> "Freedom Elz" <kred.TakeThisOut@tifle.net> wrote in message
> news:CLaJi.3947$tx1.149@read1.cgocable.net...
>
>> Bullshit, list them.
>
> Pronger, Neidermeyer, Lidstrom, Beauchamin, Phaneuf, Ohlund, Bieksa,
> Mitchell, Regehr, Jackman, (Jason) Smith, Norstrom, McKee, Hamrlik, Modry.
> At least.
Out of that list, Mitchell, Smith, Norstrom, Hamrlik, Ohlund, Bieksa,
Beauchamin, Modry
anf Regehr are not superior defesively to Hannan.
>> So far you haven't even come up with 5 in the guys you listed.
>
> According to you. If the question was 'Do I think there are 15 guys
> wherever better in any concievable way than Hannan according to Elz?',
> then obviously I would have said no.
You said there were 15 guys better defensively in the WC alone, so far you
haven't even listed 15 d-men that play in the WC.
>>> It's good the Avs signed him because obviously Skrastins wasn't cut out
>>> to face top-line opposition night in and night out, I just think putting
>>> him in the top 20 anything at his position is a pretty big leap.
>>
>> But you have yet to list 20 guys that are better defensively than he is.
>
> Again, according to you. What, did you honestly think I'd go into this
> believing for one second you'd allow yourself to agree with more than
> maybe two or three of the names I mentioned? Please.
Look, anyone that would put Kubina on the list clearly didn't see him play
last year,
he was horrid. So based on that alone you've shown that you don't have the
capacity
to be objective on this, you're just picking names off a roster.
>> Look it in the same light as a defensive forward. Is Pahlsson better than
>> Crosby? Is he
>> better defensively than Crosby or any of the top 10 scoring forwards in
>> the league?
>>
>> Hell yeah, his specialty is defense therefore comparing him by how many
>> points he
>> scores is niether here nor there unless you compare him to other
>> defensive forwards.
>
> You're missing the point.
No I'm not. >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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External
Since: Sep 02, 2007
Posts: 144
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(Msg. 60) Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:54 pm
Post subject: Re: What's the deal with Sopel? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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HockeyinHD wrote:
> "Freedom Elz" <kred RemoveThis @tifle.net> wrote in message
> news:6baJi.1389$372.523@read2.cgocable.net...
>
>> Great, he calls Hannan one dimensional, but some how the one dimesnional
>> Rafalski
>> gets omitted.
>
> Is Scott Neidermayer one-dimensional? Nick Lidstrom?
>
> See, here's the problem with the whole one-dimensional debate Offensive vs.
> Defensive dmen:
>
> When you're talking about 'defensive' dmen you're talking about guys who, by
> and large, do exactly nothing offensively. They don't score, tally assists,
> or even handle the puck with all that much ability. They are, however, good
> to great at playing the man, clearing the net-front, stuff like that.
>
> On the other hand, when you're talking about 'offensive' dmen, you're
> usually talking about guys who are putting up goals, tons of assists, fluid
> with the puck, all that stuff... but you rarely see the dearth of
> performance on the defensive side with them that you see on the offensive
> side with the 'defensive' dmen, see what I mean? If a guy isn't at least
> mediocre defensively he doesn't stay in the league,
Sandis Ozolinsh.
Patrice Brisebois.
Paul Fucking Coffey.
Brian Rafalski.
Oleg Tverdovsky.
Brian McCabe.
Need me to go on?
> while there are
> gajillions of guys who are somewhere between below mediocre to outrageously
> incompetent offensively and yet can hang around.
>
> To explain it numerically, it's like saying your typical offensive
> defenseman is a 7-9 on offense but only a 4-5 on defense while the defensive
> dmen are 1-3 on offense but 7-9's on defense.
Yeah, but that's not even remotely true. And you know that.
The only reason you make that argument in the first place is because you
know there there's no way to quantify defense, so there's no way to
disprove your argument. Thing is, there's no way to prove it either.
Thus, it's purely pointless to argue it.
-Thomas >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? |
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