What's the deal with Sopel?

External Since: Sep 02, 2007 Posts: 144

Freedom Elz wrote:
> "Thomas" <noneman.TakeThisOut@none.man> wrote in message
> news:5vOdnRRLMuClX2jbnZ2dnUVZ_trinZ2d@wideopenwest.com...
>> Chris wrote:
>>> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 14:54:14 -0400, Thomas <noneman.TakeThisOut@none.man> wrote:
>>>
>>>> HockeyinHD wrote:
>>>>> "Freedom Elz" <kred.TakeThisOut@tifle.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:6baJi.1389$372.523@read2.cgocable.net...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Great, he calls Hannan one dimensional, but some how the one
>>>>>> dimesnional Rafalski
>>>>>> gets omitted.
>>>>> Is Scott Neidermayer one-dimensional? Nick Lidstrom?
>>>>>
>>>>> See, here's the problem with the whole one-dimensional debate Offensive
>>>>> vs. Defensive dmen:
>>>>>
>>>>> When you're talking about 'defensive' dmen you're talking about guys
>>>>> who, by and large, do exactly nothing offensively. They don't score,
>>>>> tally assists, or even handle the puck with all that much ability.
>>>>> They are, however, good to great at playing the man, clearing the
>>>>> net-front, stuff like that.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, when you're talking about 'offensive' dmen, you're
>>>>> usually talking about guys who are putting up goals, tons of assists,
>>>>> fluid with the puck, all that stuff... but you rarely see the dearth of
>>>>> performance on the defensive side with them that you see on the
>>>>> offensive side with the 'defensive' dmen, see what I mean? If a guy
>>>>> isn't at least mediocre defensively he doesn't stay in the league,
>>>> Sandis Ozolinsh.
>>>> Patrice Brisebois.
>>>> Paul Fucking Coffey.
>>>> Brian Rafalski.
>>>> Oleg Tverdovsky.
>>>> Brian McCabe.
>>>>
>>>> Need me to go on?
>>>>
>>>>> while there are gajillions of guys who are somewhere between below
>>>>> mediocre to outrageously incompetent offensively and yet can hang
>>>>> around.
>>>>>
>>>>> To explain it numerically, it's like saying your typical offensive
>>>>> defenseman is a 7-9 on offense but only a 4-5 on defense while the
>>>>> defensive dmen are 1-3 on offense but 7-9's on defense.
>>>> Yeah, but that's not even remotely true. And you know that.
>>>>
>>>> The only reason you make that argument in the first place is because you
>>>> know there there's no way to quantify defense, so there's no way to
>>>> disprove your argument. Thing is, there's no way to prove it either.
>>> The concept of a defensive defenseman has been very, very well
>>> understood for several decades in NHL hockey. In fact, it's been
>>> discussed any number of times with both Bushay and Eric in this very
>>> ng any number of times. Furthermore, when I originally asked where
>>> Hannan sits in that specific list, one said "not in the top 15" the
>>> other "not in the top 20 (or 30, I forget). Yet, when I ask - over and
>>> over again - for the list of said players,
>>> lo and behold! - there is no such thing as a list of defensive
>>> defenseman. We get comments from one about offensive guys, and
>>> 7/10ths this and that, 7-9s this and other that, and from the other we
>>> get nothing, except once he reads the first guys' posts and says
>>> "Yeah, we can't really list defensive defensemen". We all know what
>>> 'defensive defensemen' are. I believe the Avs got one of the very
>>> best of them - top 5 or so - and if we look at pure defensive play
>>> amongst all defensemen ('defensive defensemen' and 'both offensive and
>>> defensive' defensemen) we got a guy in the top dozen.
>>>
>>> So, I tell them to list *any* defenseman - which should ease the pain
>>> of the sudden amnesia these guys got over the term 'defensive
>>> defenseman' - and rank *any* defenseman in the NHL them by his
>>> defense (though it will mess up the salary comparison I had hoped to
>>> do later), and I *STILL* can't get a list. I even responded to Eric's
>>> 'mini list' and jacked up a few of his suggestions with the hope that
>>> they'd feel better about their smack about Hannan and I'd get a
>>> better list from him, and a corresponding one from Bushay. I wish you
>>> hadn't jumped on me so quickly, as now it's very unlikely I'll get a
>>> list from either of them. No matter, I suppose. It'll prove itself
>>> over the coming season.
>> ...and they will still deny it because Hannan's not going to score 70
>> points, and the two of them wouldn't know defense if they saw it...
>>
>> So this time a year from now, you'll be getting frustrated by the same
>> argument from the same two guys.
>
> No doubt Bushay doesn't, then again he doesn't know his ass from a hole
> in the ground. But I'm still shaking my head in disbelief that Eric listed
> Kubina as superior to Hannan. Kubina turned in Brisebois-ian performance
> last year, absolutely putrid. If you showed tape of Kronwall next to Kubina
> last year he may just have gotten that elusive Norris trophy.

He didn't anyway?

Someone orta sue!

-Thomas

External Since: Jul 04, 2003 Posts: 256

>
>...and they will still deny it because Hannan's not going to score 70
>points, and the two of them wouldn't know defense if they saw it...
>
>So this time a year from now, you'll be getting frustrated by the same
>argument from the same two guys.

You are very likely correct.

Chris