What's the deal with Sopel?

"Thomas" <noneman.RemoveThis@none.man> wrote in message
news:AeWdnRS7O-p4KHDbnZ2dnUVZ_rWtnZ2d@wideopenwest.com...
> HockeyinHD wrote:
>> "Chris" <noone.RemoveThis@goaway.com> wrote in message
>> news:gipoe3lppqvr1hpan4aqdc8p2mjq5ls8f8@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:47:26 -0400, "HockeyinHD" <hidden.RemoveThis@home.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> Not likely, no - not without Lidstrom. The Avs' defense has improved
>>> a nice chunk from what we had last year though, and that's a good
>>> thing.
>>
>> I suppose I don't see it. As far as I can remember the Avs added Hannan
>> and lost Klee and Vaaaananaaaanen, right?
>
> Hannan and Leopold. A very good first pairing.

Enh. Probably 3rd best in the NW (behind the Flames and Canucks). I'd
guess it's a middle of the road pairing overall.

>> Hannan was a +1 on a team that was +22.
>
> +/- is irrelevant.

-shrug-

>> Having watched Detroit have a surfeit of skilled defensemen,
>
> Rafalski. Sopel, assuming he makes the team.

That Lidstrom guy? I've heard he's okay.

> I mean, I guess I don't see your point here. Rafalski and Liles are a
> wash.

Um, no.

> Clark and Sopel are a wash. How exactly is Detroit bursting with skilled
> defensemen, while Colorado is not? We have more skilled defensemen than
> you do.

Um, no.

>> I suppose my bias in that regard makes me rather leery of a team with
>> only 1.5 such players (Liles and Clark).
>
> And Leopold.

Um, no.

>> Skrastins, Hannan, Leopold, Sauer and any of the other depth guys are
>> really moderately bad puckmovers.
>
> Cumiskey is not a bad puck mover. Sauer isn't a world beater, but he's not
> bad at it either.

Okay.

HD.
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? 

"Thomas" <noneman.DeleteThis@none.man> wrote in message
news:TqmdnU0W1J9QK3DbnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@wideopenwest.com...
> HockeyinHD wrote:
>> "Chris" <noone.DeleteThis@goaway.com> wrote in message
>> news:9shpe3hgol262s8ihntkth2pj9lvfu5i0t@4ax.com...
>>
>>> If we're going to look at this through a magnifying glass, the Avs
>>> replaced Klee wth Hannan, Brisebois with a-now-hopefully-healthy
>>> Leopold, and Vaananen with Sauer.
>>
>> But the Avs had Sauer last year too.
>
> The Avs had two different Sauers last year.

Okay.

>> Were Sauer better than Vaanananen in the eyes of the coaching staff he'd
>> have played ahead of him then, right?
>
> So now Quenneville's opinion is objective fact?

It seems sort of relevant.

> Except that Leopold just has to be healthy for the Avs to benefit.

So if he's healthy, but he plays poorly...?

> Kronwall has to be healthy AND improve both his bad defense and his lack
> of production, or else he doesn't help the Wings at all.

Okay.

E.
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? 

<xpenenyx.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:vdcre3lc9je7hpsug9kkh5uvq9l590qmnm@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:18:19 -0400, "Freedom Elz" <kred.DeleteThis@tifle.net>
> wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>>> What are you saying here? That trading Tanguay cost a playoff spot or
>>>> that Leopold
>>>> misisng most of the season did?
>>>
>>>
>>> LOL. you figure it out!
>>
>>In other words you don't know yourself.
>>
> In hindsight a reasonable argument could be made for that. Don't you
> think Tanguay would have been worth an additional two points?

Probably, but then again I don't know what the Avs record was with Leoplod
in the
lineup.
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? 

"Freedom Elz" <mediadawg1 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190036288.022184.89430@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...

> Leopold's PPG average from last year would put him 3rd on the Wings
> blueline

His 15 game season?

> and even in an injury riddled campaign his average was only
> slightly less than Sopel's who is a one trick pony.

Elz, if we're talking about comparing Leopold's overall worth to Sopel, I'd
give the edge to Leopold. My point in all of this is merely to note that
Leopold's done very little offensively in his career to date irrespective of
any direct comparison to any Wings player, and that an abnsence of
significant offensive dmen seems to be an issue which may impair Colorado's
ability to be as effective as they otherwise might be. His three full
seasons of ES production are 8, 16 and 7 points. That's 31 ES points in 214
games. This is not the production of an above-averagely skilled offensive
defenseman getting a lot of ES/IT, regardless of the offensive competence of
the team as a whole. Now, as a point of reference Kronwall (who's also
demonstrated little to no NHL offense in his career) has 28 ES points in 115
career cames. Sure, Leopold's had some decent PP production... he got 4:15
a game on the PP as a rookie, 3:51 in his second year, and then 3:14 in
05-06. He probably got more PP IT as a rookie than Kronwall's ever gotten,
and as the Flames have brought in new guys to play on the PP Leopold had his
time cut significantly.

I suppose I just don't see how anyone could think Leopold's an offensive
answer.

HD.
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? 

On Sep 17, 8:06 pm, "HockeyinHD" <hid... RemoveThis @home.com> wrote:
> "Freedom Elz" <mediada... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1190036288.022184.89430@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Leopold's PPG average from last year would put him 3rd on the Wings
> > blueline
>
> His 15 game season?
>
> > and even in an injury riddled campaign his average was only
> > slightly less than Sopel's who is a one trick pony.
>
> Elz, if we're talking about comparing Leopold's overall worth to Sopel, I'd
> give the edge to Leopold. My point in all of this is merely to note that
> Leopold's done very little offensively in his career to date irrespective of
> any direct comparison to any Wings player, and that an abnsence of
> significant offensive dmen seems to be an issue which may impair Colorado's
> ability to be as effective as they otherwise might be. His three full
> seasons of ES production are 8, 16 and 7 points. That's 31 ES points in 214
> games. This is not the production of an above-averagely skilled offensive
> defenseman getting a lot of ES/IT, regardless of the offensive competence of
> the team as a whole. Now, as a point of reference Kronwall (who's also
> demonstrated little to no NHL offense in his career) has 28 ES points in 115
> career cames. Sure, Leopold's had some decent PP production... he got 4:15
> a game on the PP as a rookie, 3:51 in his second year, and then 3:14 in
> 05-06. He probably got more PP IT as a rookie than Kronwall's ever gotten,
> and as the Flames have brought in new guys to play on the PP Leopold had his
> time cut significantly.
>
> I suppose I just don't see how anyone could think Leopold's an offensive
> answer.

I'm not certain that anyone does. His specialty is the transition game
and
moving the puck up ice not putting up points as you've
demonstrated.Quite
frankly, the Avs don't need him to put 50 points from the blueline as
long
as he can get the puck up ice. The Avs don't need a shooter for the
PP,
they have Clark and Liles to fill that role. Leopold will still get
some
PP time becuase of his ability to move the puck though how many points
he puts up from back there isn't a major issue.
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? 

On Sep 20, 8:53 am, "HockeyinHD" <hid....TakeThisOut@home.com> wrote:
> "Freedom Elz" <mediada....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1190130688.710290.277360@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> I suppose I just don't see how anyone could think Leopold's an offensive
> >> answer.
>
> > I'm not certain that anyone does. His specialty is the transition game
> > and
> > moving the puck up ice not putting up points as you've
> > demonstrated.
>
> And this 'specialty' is evidenced by... what? 8 ES points a year?

How many points are awarded for moving the puck up ice? The last time
I checked
it was zero.



Playing
> on impotent offenses? TSN? Here, try this one on from them:
>
> "Skates well and is usually in sound defensive position. Has a wealth of
> offensive potential. Hits anybody that moves."
>
> Tell me who they're talking about there. He's a Wing.
>
> Oh hell, I can't wait for the answer... It's Kronwall. Now, shall I deduce
> that Kronwall's "specialties" are Defensive Position, Offensive Potential,
> and Hitting?

Check that part about Kronwall where it says FLAWS:

"Must prove capable of handling big power forwards in front of the
net. His lack of size has already led to a myriad of injury woes."

I must say I was shocked to see that Kronwall wasn't mentioned as a
future Norris trophy winner consider all the hyperbolous accolades
he's been given here in the past simply for putting on a Detroit
sweater.



> > Quite
> > frankly, the Avs don't need him to put 50 points from the blueline as
> > long
> > as he can get the puck up ice.
>
> And the question is whether he can be consistently counted on to do that
> against top line opposition. He's never played on a terribly effective
> offensive team as far as I know, so there's a bit of a 'chicken or the egg'
> question which needs to be answered.

That's totally ridiculous. Now he's responsible for the Flames not
having anyone up front
that can score? Sure, he hasn't played much on a team that has loads
of offensive talent
and it'l be interesting to see what he does over a full season. He's
also never been
paired with a d-man as good as Hannan either or been given thre green
light to go
more offensive, certainly not in Calgary.

But again, the Avs don't need him to put up big time points, they need
him to chip in here
and there but get the puck out of the defensive end. Anything else is
a bonus.




> He's provided next to no production at
> ES...

Really? Last season he scored only 10% of his points on the PP,
meanwhile Lidstrom scored over
50% of his on the PP.
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? 

"Freedom Elz" <mediadawg1.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190130688.710290.277360@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

>> I suppose I just don't see how anyone could think Leopold's an offensive
>> answer.
>
> I'm not certain that anyone does. His specialty is the transition game
> and
> moving the puck up ice not putting up points as you've
> demonstrated.

And this 'specialty' is evidenced by... what? 8 ES points a year? Playing
on impotent offenses? TSN? Here, try this one on from them:

"Skates well and is usually in sound defensive position. Has a wealth of
offensive potential. Hits anybody that moves."

Tell me who they're talking about there. He's a Wing.

Oh hell, I can't wait for the answer... It's Kronwall. Now, shall I deduce
that Kronwall's "specialties" are Defensive Position, Offensive Potential,
and Hitting?

> Quite
> frankly, the Avs don't need him to put 50 points from the blueline as
> long
> as he can get the puck up ice.

And the question is whether he can be consistently counted on to do that
against top line opposition. He's never played on a terribly effective
offensive team as far as I know, so there's a bit of a 'chicken or the egg'
question which needs to be answered. He's provided next to no production at
ES... which if he's so adroit at 'moving the puck up ice' one would think
he'd at least get second assists a little more often than next to never.

HD.
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? 

>> paired with a d-man as good as Hannan
>
>
>Boy there's a line of the day.
>
>"never been paired with a d-man as good as Hannan."
> I love it!
>
>
>Lidstrom, Rafalski,Chelios...Is this the best you got??????
>LOL!

Would you please do me a favor?

List, in no particular order, the top 20 defensive defensemen in the
NHL, in your opinion.

Chris
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? 

"Freedom Elz" <mediadawg1.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190380924.265645.251250@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 20, 8:47 pm, "Bushay" <busha....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Freedom Elz" <mediada....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1190300788.245260.200770@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 20, 8:53 am, "HockeyinHD" <hid....TakeThisOut@home.com> wrote:
>> >> "Freedom Elz" <mediada....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:1190130688.710290.277360@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> >> I suppose I just don't see how anyone could think Leopold's an
>> >> >> offensive
>> >> >> answer.
>>
>> >> > I'm not certain that anyone does. His specialty is the transition
>> >> > game
>> >> > and
>> >> > moving the puck up ice not putting up points as you've
>> >> > demonstrated.
>>
>> >> And this 'specialty' is evidenced by... what? 8 ES points a year?
>>
>> > How many points are awarded for moving the puck up ice? The last time
>> > I checked
>> > it was zero.
>>
>> > Playing
>> >> on impotent offenses? TSN? Here, try this one on from them:
>>
>> >> "Skates well and is usually in sound defensive position. Has a wealth
>> >> of
>> >> offensive potential. Hits anybody that moves."
>>
>> >> Tell me who they're talking about there. He's a Wing.
>>
>> >> Oh hell, I can't wait for the answer... It's Kronwall. Now, shall I
>> >> deduce
>> >> that Kronwall's "specialties" are Defensive Position, Offensive
>> >> Potential,
>> >> and Hitting?
>>
>> > Check that part about Kronwall where it says FLAWS:
>>
>> > "Must prove capable of handling big power forwards in front of the
>> > net. His lack of size has already led to a myriad of injury woes."
>>
>> > I must say I was shocked to see that Kronwall wasn't mentioned as a
>> > future Norris trophy winner consider all the hyperbolous accolades
>> > he's been given here in the past simply for putting on a Detroit
>> > sweater.
>>
>> >> > Quite
>> >> > frankly, the Avs don't need him to put 50 points from the blueline
>> >> > as
>> >> > long
>> >> > as he can get the puck up ice.
>>
>> >> And the question is whether he can be consistently counted on to do
>> >> that
>> >> against top line opposition. He's never played on a terribly
>> >> effective
>> >> offensive team as far as I know, so there's a bit of a 'chicken or the
>> >> egg'
>> >> question which needs to be answered.
>>
>> > That's totally ridiculous. Now he's responsible for the Flames not
>> > having anyone up front
>> > that can score? Sure, he hasn't played much on a team that has loads
>> > of offensive talent
>> > and it'l be interesting to see what he does over a full season. He's
>> > also never been
>> > paired with a d-man as good as Hannan
>>
>> Boy there's a line of the day.
>>
>> "never been paired with a d-man as good as Hannan."
>> I love it!
>
> Post some evidence to the contrary.
>
>
>
>> Lidstrom, Rafalski,Chelios...Is this the best you got??????
>> LOL!
>
> Hannan is better than Raflaksi and Chelios, what's your point here?


Hannen is NOT better than Rafalski offensively and NOT better than a 45 year
old Chelios defensively.
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? 

"Chris" <noone RemoveThis @goaway.com> wrote in message
news:adi8f39re12ddeagtvco69m6hj2d89nko3@4ax.com...
>
>>> paired with a d-man as good as Hannan
>>
>>
>>Boy there's a line of the day.
>>
>>"never been paired with a d-man as good as Hannan."
>> I love it!
>>
>>
>>Lidstrom, Rafalski,Chelios...Is this the best you got??????
>>LOL!
>
> Would you please do me a favor?
>
> List, in no particular order, the top 20 defensive defensemen in the
> NHL, in your opinion.

Well, that's actually a little difficult question to answer. When a
superstar like Mario Lemieux says that Rafalski's size or possibly
toughness[if that's what he may have been refering to] didnt matter because
he can control a game as good as anyone, I would say that the age old saying
of "the best defence is a great offence" would certainly come into play
here. But I wont avoid your question here. If I'm wrong about this i'll
admit it. It's late tonight and after work in the morning I start another
vacation so I'll have a bit more time to answer this in full. But right off
the bat I like those 3 RW defencemen better than Hannen. Call me a homer if
you will. But the proof is in the pudding. That's a lot of Stanley Cups for
those 3 vs. a big egg for Hannen. But let me answer this in full.
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? 

On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 21:27:02 -0400, "Bushay" <bushay44 DeleteThis @yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>"Chris" <noone DeleteThis @goaway.com> wrote in message
>news:adi8f39re12ddeagtvco69m6hj2d89nko3@4ax.com...
>>
>>>> paired with a d-man as good as Hannan
>>>
>>>
>>>Boy there's a line of the day.
>>>
>>>"never been paired with a d-man as good as Hannan."
>>> I love it!
>>>
>>>
>>>Lidstrom, Rafalski,Chelios...Is this the best you got??????
>>>LOL!
>>
>> Would you please do me a favor?
>>
>> List, in no particular order, the top 20 defensive defensemen in the
>> NHL, in your opinion.
>
>Well, that's actually a little difficult question to answer. When a
>superstar like Mario Lemieux says that Rafalski's size or possibly
>toughness[if that's what he may have been refering to] didnt matter because
>he can control a game as good as anyone, I would say that the age old saying
>of "the best defence is a great offence" would certainly come into play
>here. But I wont avoid your question here. If I'm wrong about this i'll
>admit it. It's late tonight and after work in the morning I start another
>vacation so I'll have a bit more time to answer this in full. But right off
>the bat I like those 3 RW defencemen better than Hannen. Call me a homer if
>you will. But the proof is in the pudding. That's a lot of Stanley Cups for
>those 3 vs. a big egg for Hannen. But let me answer this in full.
>
I will wait for your answer.

Chris

>
>
>
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? 

"Chris" <noone.DeleteThis@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:8b09f3ta60r52ahdd9nhuqh7t90bbhrra3@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 21:27:02 -0400, "Bushay" <bushay44.DeleteThis@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Chris" <noone.DeleteThis@goaway.com> wrote in message
>>news:adi8f39re12ddeagtvco69m6hj2d89nko3@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>>> paired with a d-man as good as Hannan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Boy there's a line of the day.
>>>>
>>>>"never been paired with a d-man as good as Hannan."
>>>> I love it!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Lidstrom, Rafalski,Chelios...Is this the best you got??????
>>>>LOL!
>>>
>>> Would you please do me a favor?
>>>
>>> List, in no particular order, the top 20 defensive defensemen in the
>>> NHL, in your opinion.
>>
>>Well, that's actually a little difficult question to answer. When a
>>superstar like Mario Lemieux says that Rafalski's size or possibly
>>toughness[if that's what he may have been refering to] didnt matter
>>because
>>he can control a game as good as anyone, I would say that the age old
>>saying
>>of "the best defence is a great offence" would certainly come into play
>>here. But I wont avoid your question here. If I'm wrong about this i'll
>>admit it. It's late tonight and after work in the morning I start another
>>vacation so I'll have a bit more time to answer this in full. But right
>>off
>>the bat I like those 3 RW defencemen better than Hannen. Call me a homer
>>if
>>you will. But the proof is in the pudding. That's a lot of Stanley Cups
>>for
>>those 3 vs. a big egg for Hannen. But let me answer this in full.
>>
> I will wait for your answer.


Chris...the preliminary list I have put together says your argument is in
trouble.

One dimenshinal [sp] Scott Hannen doesnt break the top 15.



>
> Chris
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel? 

>> I will wait for your answer.
>
>
>Chris...the preliminary list I have put together says your argument is in
>trouble.
>
>One dimenshinal [sp] Scott Hannen doesnt break the top 15.

Uh huh.

The list, please...

Chris
 >> Stay informed about: What's the deal with Sopel?