Pointing it out now, while I can...

On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:40:34 -0400, Thomas <noneman RemoveThis @none.man> wrote:

>Chris wrote:
>>>>>> Vrbata's
>>>>>> not a bad player, but he's not as good as Datsyuk.
>>>>> Enh, I don't see much difference. A lot of it is opportunity. Neither of
>>>>> them are anything at all defensively, and there certainly isn't a
>>>>> noticeable difference between them on the defensive side. Both are
>>>>> offensively gifted. They are the same size, and neither are physical.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just don't see much difference, other than opportunity.
>>>> And production.
>>> Their production is a function of their opportunity.
>>
>> Could be their ability, too.
>
>It's not, in this case.
>
>>
>>> Very similar players. Very different opportunities. Vrbata has gotten a
>>> better opportunity this year, and he's flourishing so far.
>>
>> 'Flourishing'? 2 points on 3 shots in 2 games?
>>
>> Dude, 125 players have at least 2 points right now. :-)
>
>He's putting up points playing 1st line minutes, just like I said he
>would. It's definitely still early (1/41st of the way through the
>season), but he's producing. And Datsyuk isn't.

We're two games in, Thomas. Two. Games.

Vrbata is not the same caliber player that Datsyuk is.

Chris
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can... 

On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 20:04:25 -0600, Chris <noone.DeleteThis@goaway.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:40:34 -0400, Thomas <noneman.DeleteThis@none.man> wrote:
>
>>Chris wrote:
>>>>>>> Vrbata's
>>>>>>> not a bad player, but he's not as good as Datsyuk.
>>>>>> Enh, I don't see much difference. A lot of it is opportunity. Neither of
>>>>>> them are anything at all defensively, and there certainly isn't a
>>>>>> noticeable difference between them on the defensive side. Both are
>>>>>> offensively gifted. They are the same size, and neither are physical.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just don't see much difference, other than opportunity.
>>>>> And production.
>>>> Their production is a function of their opportunity.
>>>
>>> Could be their ability, too.
>>
>>It's not, in this case.
>>
>>>
>>>> Very similar players. Very different opportunities. Vrbata has gotten a
>>>> better opportunity this year, and he's flourishing so far.
>>>
>>> 'Flourishing'? 2 points on 3 shots in 2 games?
>>>
>>> Dude, 125 players have at least 2 points right now. :-)
>>
>>He's putting up points playing 1st line minutes, just like I said he
>>would. It's definitely still early (1/41st of the way through the
>>season), but he's producing. And Datsyuk isn't.
>
>We're two games in, Thomas. Two. Games.
>
>Vrbata is not the same caliber player that Datsyuk is.

....and Henrik Zetterberg (7 points in 3 games) is outscoring just
about everyone not named Stastny.
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can... 

Chris wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:40:34 -0400, Thomas <noneman.RemoveThis@none.man> wrote:
>
>> Chris wrote:
>>>>>>> Vrbata's
>>>>>>> not a bad player, but he's not as good as Datsyuk.
>>>>>> Enh, I don't see much difference. A lot of it is opportunity. Neither of
>>>>>> them are anything at all defensively, and there certainly isn't a
>>>>>> noticeable difference between them on the defensive side. Both are
>>>>>> offensively gifted. They are the same size, and neither are physical.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just don't see much difference, other than opportunity.
>>>>> And production.
>>>> Their production is a function of their opportunity.
>>> Could be their ability, too.
>> It's not, in this case.
>>
>>>> Very similar players. Very different opportunities. Vrbata has gotten a
>>>> better opportunity this year, and he's flourishing so far.
>>> 'Flourishing'? 2 points on 3 shots in 2 games?
>>>
>>> Dude, 125 players have at least 2 points right now. :-)
>> He's putting up points playing 1st line minutes, just like I said he
>> would. It's definitely still early (1/41st of the way through the
>> season), but he's producing. And Datsyuk isn't.
>
> We're two games in, Thomas. Two. Games.

Doesn't matter. I am not saying what I am saying based on two games.

>
> Vrbata is not the same caliber player that Datsyuk is.

Sure he is. Datsyuk's numbers are inflated by his ice time, linemates,
opponents, reputation and his opportunity. Vrbata's numbers have been
deflated by his lack of ice time, poor linemates, lack of reputation and
lack of opportunity.

If Vrbata gets the same opportunity that Datsyuk has, he will produce
the same.

-Thomas
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can... 

"Thomas" <noneman.RemoveThis@none.man> wrote in message
news:R7WdncsD-LS0jpbanZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@wideopenwest.com...

> If Vrbata gets the same opportunity that Datsyuk has, he will produce the
> same.

Cart, meet horse.

HD.
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can... 

On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 01:37:36 -0400, Thomas <noneman DeleteThis @none.man> wrote:

>Chris wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:40:34 -0400, Thomas <noneman DeleteThis @none.man> wrote:
>>
>>> Chris wrote:
>>>>>>>> Vrbata's
>>>>>>>> not a bad player, but he's not as good as Datsyuk.
>>>>>>> Enh, I don't see much difference. A lot of it is opportunity. Neither of
>>>>>>> them are anything at all defensively, and there certainly isn't a
>>>>>>> noticeable difference between them on the defensive side. Both are
>>>>>>> offensively gifted. They are the same size, and neither are physical.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just don't see much difference, other than opportunity.
>>>>>> And production.
>>>>> Their production is a function of their opportunity.
>>>> Could be their ability, too.
>>> It's not, in this case.
>>>
>>>>> Very similar players. Very different opportunities. Vrbata has gotten a
>>>>> better opportunity this year, and he's flourishing so far.
>>>> 'Flourishing'? 2 points on 3 shots in 2 games?
>>>>
>>>> Dude, 125 players have at least 2 points right now. :-)
>>> He's putting up points playing 1st line minutes, just like I said he
>>> would. It's definitely still early (1/41st of the way through the
>>> season), but he's producing. And Datsyuk isn't.
>>
>> We're two games in, Thomas. Two. Games.
>
>Doesn't matter. I am not saying what I am saying based on two games.

You just said it's 1/41st of the way through the season, so I simply
assumed you were talking about, you know, 2 games.

>> Vrbata is not the same caliber player that Datsyuk is.
>
>Sure he is.

Oy...

>Datsyuk's numbers are inflated by his ice time, linemates,
>opponents, reputation and his opportunity. Vrbata's numbers have been
>deflated by his lack of ice time, poor linemates, lack of reputation and
>lack of opportunity.
>
>If Vrbata gets the same opportunity that Datsyuk has, he will produce
>the same.

I very seriously doubt it.

When he doesn't this year, are we going to find some funny reason as
to why that is, i.e. Vrbata's lack of reputation resulted in refs'
calls going against him, so he didn't score up to par wtih Datsyuk?
Or do you suspect we'll go with 'Datsyuk is better than Vrbata after
all'?

I don't think we're talking about similar caliber players here.

Chris
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can... 

On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 01:37:36 -0400, Thomas <noneman RemoveThis @none.man> wrote:

>Chris wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:40:34 -0400, Thomas <noneman RemoveThis @none.man> wrote:
>>
>>> Chris wrote:
>>>>>>>> Vrbata's
>>>>>>>> not a bad player, but he's not as good as Datsyuk.
>>>>>>> Enh, I don't see much difference. A lot of it is opportunity. Neither of
>>>>>>> them are anything at all defensively, and there certainly isn't a
>>>>>>> noticeable difference between them on the defensive side. Both are
>>>>>>> offensively gifted. They are the same size, and neither are physical.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just don't see much difference, other than opportunity.
>>>>>> And production.
>>>>> Their production is a function of their opportunity.
>>>> Could be their ability, too.
>>> It's not, in this case.
>>>
>>>>> Very similar players. Very different opportunities. Vrbata has gotten a
>>>>> better opportunity this year, and he's flourishing so far.
>>>> 'Flourishing'? 2 points on 3 shots in 2 games?
>>>>
>>>> Dude, 125 players have at least 2 points right now. :-)
>>> He's putting up points playing 1st line minutes, just like I said he
>>> would. It's definitely still early (1/41st of the way through the
>>> season), but he's producing. And Datsyuk isn't.
>>
>> We're two games in, Thomas. Two. Games.
>
>Doesn't matter. I am not saying what I am saying based on two games.
>
>>
>> Vrbata is not the same caliber player that Datsyuk is.
>
>Sure he is. Datsyuk's numbers are inflated by his ice time, linemates,
>opponents, reputation and his opportunity.

His numbers are inflated by his reputation?!?!? This isn't Michael
Jordan taking three steps down the lane, Tom.

Okay, now you're just flat making things up.

>Vrbata's numbers have been
>deflated by his lack of ice time, poor linemates, lack of reputation and
>lack of opportunity.

So have Boyd Devereaux's.
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can... 

"Thomas" <noneman DeleteThis @none.man> wrote in message
news:R7WdncsD-LS0jpbanZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@wideopenwest.com...
> Chris wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:40:34 -0400, Thomas <noneman DeleteThis @none.man> wrote:
>>
>>> Chris wrote:
>>>>>>>> Vrbata's
>>>>>>>> not a bad player, but he's not as good as Datsyuk.
>>>>>>> Enh, I don't see much difference. A lot of it is opportunity.
>>>>>>> Neither of them are anything at all defensively, and there certainly
>>>>>>> isn't a noticeable difference between them on the defensive side.
>>>>>>> Both are offensively gifted. They are the same size, and neither are
>>>>>>> physical.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just don't see much difference, other than opportunity.
>>>>>> And production.
>>>>> Their production is a function of their opportunity.
>>>> Could be their ability, too.
>>> It's not, in this case.
>>>
>>>>> Very similar players. Very different opportunities. Vrbata has gotten
>>>>> a better opportunity this year, and he's flourishing so far.
>>>> 'Flourishing'? 2 points on 3 shots in 2 games?
>>>> Dude, 125 players have at least 2 points right now. :-)
>>> He's putting up points playing 1st line minutes, just like I said he
>>> would. It's definitely still early (1/41st of the way through the
>>> season), but he's producing. And Datsyuk isn't.
>>
>> We're two games in, Thomas. Two. Games.
>
> Doesn't matter. I am not saying what I am saying based on two games.
>
>>
>> Vrbata is not the same caliber player that Datsyuk is.
>
> Sure he is. Datsyuk's numbers are inflated by his ice time, linemates,
> opponents, reputation and his opportunity. Vrbata's numbers have been
> deflated by his lack of ice time, poor linemates, lack of reputation and
> lack of opportunity.
>
> If Vrbata gets the same opportunity that Datsyuk has, he will produce the
> same.
>

Put the pipe down...
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can... 

Chris wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 01:37:36 -0400, Thomas <noneman.RemoveThis@none.man> wrote:
>
>> Chris wrote:
>>> On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:40:34 -0400, Thomas <noneman.RemoveThis@none.man> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Chris wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Vrbata's
>>>>>>>>> not a bad player, but he's not as good as Datsyuk.
>>>>>>>> Enh, I don't see much difference. A lot of it is opportunity. Neither of
>>>>>>>> them are anything at all defensively, and there certainly isn't a
>>>>>>>> noticeable difference between them on the defensive side. Both are
>>>>>>>> offensively gifted. They are the same size, and neither are physical.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just don't see much difference, other than opportunity.
>>>>>>> And production.
>>>>>> Their production is a function of their opportunity.
>>>>> Could be their ability, too.
>>>> It's not, in this case.
>>>>
>>>>>> Very similar players. Very different opportunities. Vrbata has gotten a
>>>>>> better opportunity this year, and he's flourishing so far.
>>>>> 'Flourishing'? 2 points on 3 shots in 2 games?
>>>>>
>>>>> Dude, 125 players have at least 2 points right now. :-)
>>>> He's putting up points playing 1st line minutes, just like I said he
>>>> would. It's definitely still early (1/41st of the way through the
>>>> season), but he's producing. And Datsyuk isn't.
>>> We're two games in, Thomas. Two. Games.
>> Doesn't matter. I am not saying what I am saying based on two games.
>
> You just said it's 1/41st of the way through the season, so I simply
> assumed you were talking about, you know, 2 games.

Right.

This isn't difficult.

2 games into the season, Vrbata is/was outproducing Datsyuk. Datsyuk
isn't any better of a player than Vrbata. The second statement isn't
dependent on the first.


>
>> Datsyuk's numbers are inflated by his ice time, linemates,
>> opponents, reputation and his opportunity. Vrbata's numbers have been
>> deflated by his lack of ice time, poor linemates, lack of reputation and
>> lack of opportunity.
>>
>> If Vrbata gets the same opportunity that Datsyuk has, he will produce
>> the same.
>
> I very seriously doubt it.

Of course you do.

>
> When he doesn't this year, are we going to find some funny reason as
> to why that is, i.e. Vrbata's lack of reputation resulted in refs'
> calls going against him, so he didn't score up to par wtih Datsyuk?

Who said anything about the refs?

> Or do you suspect we'll go with 'Datsyuk is better than Vrbata after
> all'?

If Vrbata gets first line minutes all year long and Datsyuk still
outscores him by 10p or more, then I would concede that Datsyuk is a
better offensive player. And on the defensive end, I would assess that
(without bias, obviously) based on what I have seen of them this year.

If Vrbata stops getting first line minutes for something other than
production, then there's no fair comparison and I am not going to ignore
the truth to placate you and a bunch of Wings homers.

>
> I don't think we're talking about similar caliber players here.

We are.

They really are the same player. Same size. Same one-dimensional game.

Different opportunities.

This year, so far, Vrbata has been getting a better opportunity, and his
numbers are beginning to show that. His numbers last year were not bad
compared to Datsyuk's, especially when you pro-rate them to Datsyuk's
TOI and take into account his linemates.

I don't expect you to be able to understand something that isn't black
and white, so I am not surprised you think *I* am the silly one. You
watch the Avs and you look at the numbers. That alone gives you better
perspective than Wings fans. But that doesn't give you the whole picture.

-Thomas
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can... 

On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 15:21:40 -0400, Thomas <noneman RemoveThis @none.man> wrote:

>> I don't think we're talking about similar caliber players here.
>
>We are.
>
>They really are the same player. Same size. Same one-dimensional game.
>
>Different opportunities.
>
>This year, so far, Vrbata has been getting a better opportunity, and his
>numbers are beginning to show that. His numbers last year were not bad
>compared to Datsyuk's, especially when you pro-rate them to Datsyuk's
>TOI and take into account his linemates.

Based on TOI, and especially opportunity with a top line, Jiri Hudler
scored more goals than anyone on the Colorado Avalanche roster last
year.

In fact, using your special theory of TOI/Reputation Relativity, Jiri
Hudler is the best player in the world. Let's hear it for Jiri!!!

This is the problem with all of these oddball theories of yours.
Taken out to their logical conclusions, they're insane.

>I don't expect you to be able to understand something that isn't black
>and white, so I am not surprised you think *I* am the silly one.

In this instance, go with the plurality of opinion. No one agrees
with you on this for a reason. And it's not because they're "out to
get you". It's because the only thing more ridiculous than your
original statement is the lengths to which you'll go to try to defend
it.
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can... 

"Thomas" <noneman.RemoveThis@none.man> wrote in message
news:GuednRZW9pnTSZbanZ2dnUVZ_ruqnZ2d@wideopenwest.com...

> This year, so far, Vrbata has been getting a better opportunity, and his
> numbers are beginning to show that. His numbers last year were not bad
> compared to Datsyuk's, especially when you pro-rate them to Datsyuk's TOI
> and take into account his linemates.

ES: Datsyuk +1:20/g. PP: Datsyuk +33 seconds a game. Datsyuk, well over
twice as many points as Vrbata.

Boy, he must have been playing with the best linemates in the history of the
NHL.

And it's amazing that none of the 17 NHL teams Vrbata has been on has
figured out that all you have to do is play him more and he'd be top 10 in
WC scoring. Whew, it's a good thing we have guys like Tom to provide such
brilliant insight. The NHL's loss, but definitely our gain.

HD.
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can... 

On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 19:09:54 -0400, "HockeyinHD" <hidden.DeleteThis@home.com>
wrote:

>
>"Thomas" <noneman.DeleteThis@none.man> wrote in message
>news:GuednRZW9pnTSZbanZ2dnUVZ_ruqnZ2d@wideopenwest.com...
>
>> This year, so far, Vrbata has been getting a better opportunity, and his
>> numbers are beginning to show that. His numbers last year were not bad
>> compared to Datsyuk's, especially when you pro-rate them to Datsyuk's TOI
>> and take into account his linemates.
>
>ES: Datsyuk +1:20/g. PP: Datsyuk +33 seconds a game. Datsyuk, well over
>twice as many points as Vrbata.

There's no room for factual information in this debate, Eric. If your
stats came from an official source, you can just tear them up right
now. If they, instead, were pulled straight from your posterior, then
they are of course welcome.

>Boy, he must have been playing with the best linemates in the history of the
>NHL.

I think you're discounting the effect of THE SYSTEM.

I don't know why Illitch keeps paying all these hockey players, when
all he really needs is THE SYSTEM.

>And it's amazing that none of the 17 NHL teams Vrbata has been on has
>figured out that all you have to do is play him more and he'd be top 10 in
>WC scoring. Whew, it's a good thing we have guys like Tom to provide such
>brilliant insight. The NHL's loss, but definitely our gain.

Apparently, there are hordes of GM's *almost* as dumb as Ken Holland.
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can... 

"Chris" <noone RemoveThis @goaway.com> wrote in message
news:c2jqg3pc26rb8r2k25d7mc5aardjf7ohrh@4ax.com...

> Ho hum...
>
> *chuckle*

I think my favorite parts about Tom's latest venture into the land of the
Blatantly Stupid is how he thinks Vrbata's had so much less IT than Datsyuk,
and how now all of a sudden Detroit's this great forward team when he's
spent ten years crucifying their forwards. Oh, with Lang and WIlliams the
team is chock full of fantastic linemates for Datsyuk... but now that those
two guys are gone... :)

HD.
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can... 

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:07:56 -0400, "HockeyinHD" <hidden.TakeThisOut@home.com>
wrote:

>
>"Chris" <noone.TakeThisOut@goaway.com> wrote in message
>news:c2jqg3pc26rb8r2k25d7mc5aardjf7ohrh@4ax.com...
>
>> Ho hum...
>>
>> *chuckle*
>
>I think my favorite parts about Tom's latest venture into the land of the
>Blatantly Stupid is...

Look, we've got to have some fun with this stuff. I mean, we just had
"Vrbata is the same caliber player as Datsyuk" and "you know nothing
about hockey" from the same guy in the same post. LOL.

Shit Eric, if that's not good value for your usenet entertainment
dollar, what is?

Chris
 >> Stay informed about: Pointing it out now, while I can...